How do you teach your daughters to be nice but not nice?

[Incarnationsofunderstanding]

Boys too I guess to be fair.

Had a terrible experience recently (not detailing, been there deleted that), but as I think and think on it part of the cause is im nice. I'm empathic and tend to put other peoples needs above my own instincts.

Also I tend to the polite and have an inability to set firm boundaries.

I've found myself starting to say to the girls in the past week things like "it's your choice" "you can say no" but I'm handling it all wrong as a reaction.

So wise ladies of MN feminism, how do I ensure my daughters have all the traits of empathy, kindness etc. But be able to prioritise their ability to say no, to set boundaries, to be hard?

Reading material welcome for the future when I am able.

Awww @Incarnationsofunderstanding, that's exactly the kind of thing I would have said about four months ago.

You are not crap, you are lovely!

I'm working on this still too, so let's move forward together on this with the power of MN behind us

I've been thinking about this a lot. We had an assembly in school yesterday (girls' school) with a message of always be kind and generous even if people don't appreciate it. And I thought, I was always kind and generous as a teenager and I was permanently treated like a doormat as a result (by other girls as a teen, but now it's mainly men I can't stand up to). I've never seen the message of it being healthy to have boundaries and it being ok to say no being taught in school.

I think my key message is forget “what will people think”

This was/is practically my mother’s mantra. Even now she’ll say to my kids, put your coat on, or people will think you’re silly.

Every action is tempered by other peoples reaction to it. I have gone through life not doing stuff, and trying to remain as low profile as possible. In case people see me and think negatively.

So stuff what people think. Do what you want without fear of judgement.

I would never teach my child that she is more or less important than anyone else.

Female socialisation, regardless of background, is to put themselves second. To regard others as more important, with better opinions. Telling your dd she is MORE important redressed that a little - it'll never move her to a position where she actually thinks she's more important but it might move her thinking to understand she is at least equal.

Coupled with my third rule - do the right thing - should increase awareness of how things impact on others without accompanying diva-ness

I think it is about teaching assertiveness. I read Anne Dickson's book on this many years ago and went to a class which has kind of stayed with me ever since.

www.annedickson.co.uk/books/a-woman-in-your-own-right/

The copy I had, had a mirrored front cover so you saw yourself reflected in it!

Like the look of that Anne Dickson book. Will read myself.

Is there a list of such resources pinned anywhere on Feminism Chat or Parenting? Could be an idea...

I totally see what you are saying Titchy about female socialisation - we are definitely on same page - I just think I would just prefer to do it by emphasising equality in all things.

Yes fascinated I had forgotten about the book but now I have remembered I'm wondering what happened to my copy and thinking I should get another for my teen DD for her upcoming birthday!

I like the idea of a reading list too! That book was published in the early 1980s but it's like people have forgotten (or are just much younger than me!). It's a little depressing that all the same stuff still needs to be said.

Read some of Jordan B Peterson's work on combating women's lack of aggression where needed and self confidence.
I know he isn't flavour of the month around here because of his thoughts on Marxist Feminism but he gives examples of how he works with corporate women to help them overcome reticence and in some cases triple their salary over a five year period. It is one of the major contributors of the gender earnings gap.

Thank you I was struggling this morning and the book list and advice is helping. Now I can distract myself with Amazon shopping.

I'm also going to get some assertiveness training too good idea.

I think the not teaching them to care what others think is good but how do you balance that with societal expectations of behaviour?

Jordan B Peterson seems a fairly controversial figure though!

thevarsity.ca/2017/10/08/jordan-peterson-i-dont-think-that-men-can-control-crazy-women/

Teach them to have self-respect and build their self-esteem. Teach them about consent and respecting others' boundaries as well as how to make their own boundaries clear. Teach them that it's a good thing to make other people happy but not to the detriment of their own happiness. Teach them to stand up for themselves and to express themselves. Teach them to be polite and civil, of course, but ensure that they expect this behaviour in return. And if they don't get it, they stop.

I was taught to be polite and I was also taught not to take any shit. It has served me well over the years. Too often women prioritise other people to the extent that they are left unfulfilled and unhappy. If I ever have a daughter, I will tell her that she is the most important person in her own life and she doesn't need to apologise for looking after herself. As a pp has said, women are socially conditioned to put themselves last and I think it's high time that stopped.

Thanks for this thread, OP. I think I'm a lot like you, too. I have daughters and my eldest is a bombastic, warrior preschooler. Living with her is quite testing at times, and I can hear myself trying to get her to be nice, be gentle, be kind and be bloody quiet (so much 'NOOO!' at the moment) and I think shit, I'm going to turn her into me.

I'm only starting to realise how much of a people pleaser I have always been. I'd always thought of kindness / thoughtfulness as my best quality, and now I'm thinking it might have been a trap.

fascinating yes a pinned reading list would be awesome!

I've learnt that no matter how 'nice' you are, someone will take a dislike to you anyway. So now I am respectful to others generally but don't go out of my way to be 'nice' /liked. I find that it makes for more genuine interactions as obsequiousness isn't actually all that pleasant a trait anyway.

Yes, thank you everyone for fab book recommendations!

Stiletto what I was trying to express earlier - badly! - is that I don't think kindness and thoughtfulness need necessarily be incompatible with assertiveness but it is a very difficult balance to strike (haven't got it right yet).

Fascinating agreed a pinned list, to help us to raise safer, stronger less obedient but kind and caring daughters against everything would be great!

The biggest part of this is role modelling - what your children see you do not what you tell them!
The best message my parents gave me as a teen was that I could always phone home even if a situation was partly my fault. So if I'd taken drugs or taken a lift with a dodgy character or similar. I don't think I ever actually did, but I felt empowered knowing people had my back even if I had cocked up.
My kids are little but something my neices have commented on is that I always trust them. If they don't want to wear a coat, I trust them to make that decision (they take after their dad and are always warm). My son said 'im poorly" - my neice asked me how come I believe him! Actually he isn't always poorly when he says it - he's usually either too hot or needs a poo! But rather than deny that he feels poorly I say take a jumper off and go to the toilet. I start from the point that he's trying to convey something even if he doesn't recognise what. I think being taught to ignore your feelings can throw your instincts off so you don't recognise danger.

If it's role modelling my kids are screwed unless I sort myself out!

I find this hard too. However almost all of the really dangerous situations I’ve been in, have been due to me being polite at the expense of listening to my instincts, so I tell them to be kind and polite, until someone makes them feel uncomfortable, and that if that happens then all gloves are off. That their safety is far more important than anyone else’s feelings, and that anyone kind would rather be offended that have them feel uncomfortable anyway, and anyone unkind doesn’t matter.
Read the Gift of Fear op, that is good on politeness. It is something I struggle with myself so I really want my daughters to feel they can be “rude” to anyone they don’t trust.

Great thread OP. Like you I am a people pleaser and have ended up in positions I am uncomfortable with so that I don't offend people. I don't want that for DD. She's not even 2 yet but I'm already at logger heads with my dad about it. He tries to give her a hug and a kiss goodbye and she doesn't want to. I tell her its ok if she doesnt want to and just wave but he insists she will end up rude not listening to adults

I'll go back and read the full thread now.

Excellent question, OP.

Unlike you, I'm not a particularly nice person (quick temper, have been known to be vindictive) but my teenaged DD is.

She competes in a team sport which, although mixed sex, is dominated by girls. Recently, she was at the national championships. At the end of the event - the medal ceremony - the female announcer said "The trophies are going to be presented by Mr XYZ, he is a very important man so you must all smile at him"

I was speechless. Later I discussed it with DD, telling her you usually smile at someone who is giving you a medal/trophy because you are pleased to be receiving acknowledgement of your sporting success. But you never need to smile at a man because (a) you've been told to (b) he's deemed to be important.

Ffs!

Your kids might not be screwed - plenty of people rebel against what their parents do (see up thread someone whose mums mantra was 'what will people think'). But if you want your kids to listen to your words you have to let them see how that course of action worked out for you.