How do you teach your daughters to be nice but not nice?

[Incarnationsofunderstanding]

Boys too I guess to be fair.

Had a terrible experience recently (not detailing, been there deleted that), but as I think and think on it part of the cause is im nice. I'm empathic and tend to put other peoples needs above my own instincts.

Also I tend to the polite and have an inability to set firm boundaries.

I've found myself starting to say to the girls in the past week things like "it's your choice" "you can say no" but I'm handling it all wrong as a reaction.

So wise ladies of MN feminism, how do I ensure my daughters have all the traits of empathy, kindness etc. But be able to prioritise their ability to say no, to set boundaries, to be hard?

Reading material welcome for the future when I am able.

How do we teach boys to be nice but not 'nice'? Does that work?

Not when the real lesson boys need is to not be entitled.

Obviously plenty of people on this thread and others are well aware of the situation and are doing their best to raise kind respectful boys.

But the denial and "what about the boys" attitude of people like Lass is probabky why in a park full of children a kid as young as 7 would still choose an 11 yr old girl to "pick on" than boys his own age.

My dd seems to get "trouble" every time she goes to the park these days.

And all from boys

Lasswiadelicateair the fact that it's similar advice to that you would offer a boy is surely the point of this thread?

Sorry the first sentence of my last post is confusing. It should say that of all the people in the world you have responsibility towards, the primary one is yourself. You may want to be kind and care for others but to do that you have to have the resources - and you build resources by caring for yourself. Also you should only give away what you can afford never to get back - that applies to love, effort and kindness as much as money. If you give and then resentfully wait for payback you are just manipulating others for attention. Recognition isn't bought.

Excellent point Giles

It's something I obviously think about as someone with sons.

To not rear back defensively when boys are criticised. To make sure my sons learn not to hurt others when they feel inadequate (a major source of crimes against women, I think)

identifies it's certainly not a criticism or hatred of boys. I have male friends. I have a male dp as do many others here.

And I certainly don't take it as a criticism if girls (which I have 2 of ) that they are somehow raised to be victims of all this and keep quiet about it.

More than anything I am so grateful to MN and these threads to highlight issues I'd never noticed befire. I am very much one that allowed myself to ignore my feelings and boundries to appease others.

I don't want to do the same with my Dds. I have certainly not been all "boys will do this . Boys will do that" honestly she's come to realise alot of these things for herself.

I think the discussion is helpful for everyone to perhaps help banish the "boys will be boys" and "girls be nice" stereotypes once and for all. And I think it's possible to do so without taking it personally. We all love our children and let's face it whether we have boys or girls we are all faves with some difficult realisations and some work ahead if is to break the cycles.

I think the message I never received that I want my Dds to receive is "it's not your fault"

Sorry that probabky read a bit more aggressively than i meant it to. I fully agree with you and just meant it's not a personal.attack on boys and girls and that we should carry on working on things than taking it as negatives against ourselves as parents.

I think it is really important that they know they are allowed to change their mind.

'Boys will be boys held accountable for their actions' is the phrase that comes to mind when reading through this very interesting thread.

My 16 year old son is the kindest person I know - yes, he can be moody at times, and has retaliated physically when bullied, but he is innately good. He is autistic and finds it difficult to discern sarcasm and other social interactions but what he does is say politely that he finds it difficult. He has found that his friends will stop and think about what they have said.

I like the points Titchy made upthread. And the book recommendations are interesting too.

I am incredibly wary of “trust your instincts”. Apart from anything else, a lot of really crap people project absolute likeability and trustworthiness- that’s part of what makes them crap people.

The really difficult thing is that we really are our children’s first port of call as role models when they are little. So, however hard it is, we absolutely have to model good relationships for them. Which means treating other people well. not allowing ourselves to be treated badly and making sure that any men in our lives behave in ways we would want our sons to behave as adults. “How would I feel if I saw my adult son or daughter in this relationship?” is a very telling, and often uncomfortable question.

And this is not just about “couple” relationships. It’s about friendships, working relationships and how you deal with the man at the garage. “Would I want my adult child to behave like this?”.

ferriswheel I think allowing your children to change their minds is very important too. It can be frustrating but ultimately it gives them the power of agency and does let them make the proper choices in later life. Being wrong should never be seen as a 'fault'.

Good points Bertrand.

Totally agree elendon allowing for them to be wrong and it to be ok is so important as they can then take ownership of that and not blame it on someone else.

Lass - I do exactly the same with my boys. I think part of the reason I have string boundaries is because I was brought up pretty much like a boy (for reasons I won’t explain here, but I know it is true ...and my dad was at times the primary caregiver so I had a lot of time observing him). Doesn’t stop me noticing that lots of other women my age behave quite differently and I detect female socialisation at play there, and sexism towards them - I get sexism directed at me too but my reaction is often enough to stop it in its tracks. This to me suggests that people put women into (at least) two categories- ones that can be messed with, and ones that can’t (honorary “lads”/men - or perhaps it is more “people worthy of respect”? Anyway, since so many women are harmed by this attitude, I think it is valid to discuss it on a feminism board). I count myself in the latter category, and it sounds as if Lass has been lucky enough to gain membership too- being in a highly regarded profession and having tons of money helps too, of course. And not being burdened by domesticity & children, or not too many, or having the means to outsource that burden helps too. That’s why many very successful women don’t perceive this to be an issue, I think. But I have the grace to accept that my experience of being female is not the same as many (most?) other women.

Oh, and another thing I am very wary of is the parenting mantra of "you have to follow through" "you have to do it now you've said it" usually relating to a punishment threat made in haste. NO YOU DON'T! A much better lesson is to say "Actually, I overreacted there. I got it wrong. Let's rewind and do that again but better".

I've got both and hopefully taught them the same things, to do the right thing, to be kind to others, not to be afraid to say no, to do their best and aim high. My 4 are all different in some ways but all hard working, DD can be more feisty than her brothers, she is also more focused than 2 of them, very dedicated to her job. I think the biggest difference between them is she was more sorted as a teenager, knew what she wanted and went for it whereas the boys were all a bit more laid back/disorganised but they all got there in the end.

Thinking about it my DD is in the family tradition, my Great grandmother kicked out a drunken husband and brought up 4 children alone, worked and bout her own house, not well educated and left school at 12. Grandmother and grandfather also split up, she was amazing and made her living as a cook and she could make a feast out of scraps. My mother was widowed and brought up 3 children and ran the family business. I'm still with my husband but he was the SAHP and I've always worked.

I suppose it would be odd if my kids assumed women stayed in the house and were subservient to men.

Oh, and another thing I am very wary of is the parenting mantra of "you have to follow through" "you have to do it now you've said it" usually relating to a punishment threat made in haste. NO YOU DON'T! A much better lesson is to say "Actually, I overreacted there. I got it wrong. Let's rewind and do that again but better". I agree with this, how do we expect children to acknowledge their mistakes and learn from them if we aren't able to do the same.

Giles

No problem. I didn't read it as aggressive

Bertrand

Totally agree about modeling

But the denial and "what about the boys" attitude of people like Lass is probabky why in a park full of children a kid as young as 7 would still choose an 11 yr old girl to "pick on" than boys his own age

I would hope that my son didn't pick on any one whatever their or his age. I clearly have not expressed myself well but your suggestion that I might have said to him "why don't you pick on someone your own age" is extremely offensive.

My point was that parents should be teaching all their children to be nice and kind , but not be walked over, to have empathy for others but not at the expense of their own needs and rights; to be confident but not bullying.

This thread to me gives off waves of negativity about your daughters and their lives- a sort of let's make sure they know from an early age life will be awful.

I think the discussion is helpful for everyone to perhaps help banish the "boys will be boys" and "girls be nice" stereotypes once and for all

These are not views I have ever personally held. It is not a mindset the persons who brought me up adopted nor is it how my son was brought up. Equally the persons who brought me up never implanted this "you are a girl- you are doomed to fail" mindset either.

This thread to me gives off waves of negativity about your daughters and their lives- a sort of let's make sure they know from an early age life will be awful

How on earth did you get that?

This is about how to raise them precisely so this doesn't happen. Recognising the differences is so vital for this.

Most of us probably grew up being treated differently to our brothers. And we don't want to do the same. The fight will be there whether we admit it or not. Surely it's better to acknowledge it and work on it than it is to ignore it because otherwise it's making out our kids lives are going to be awful.

It would be nice if all parents taught their children of both sexes to be nice and kind, but many many of them are very evidently not doing so. I agree though that this is a people thing- anyone who is not assertive will be in trouble in life. However the point being made here is that many women are trying to overcome what they now realise to be additional handicaps due to female socialisation AND the impact of sexist attitudes displayed by others. These are specific issues faced only by females. So I do think there is a sex aspect. Obviously I wouldn’t labour the point with any girls I had, though.

And it's not just what parents are teaching. Is everywhere books films school.

My dd corrected her football club coach as he kept saying"boy of the match " she told him there were girls here . She also told her teacher that the book should say fire fighter not fireman as women are fire fighters too.

Boys actively exclude girls from certain sports etc

Wow, Lass. You’re so lucky! Well done.

There is a huge issue with male violence and male entitlement in our society. I don’t think we can acknowledge that and simultaneously think that we are doing a perfectly good job of raising our boys.

Bertrand

No. I agree

There's also a huge issue of suicide amongst young men which suggests the same thing