Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Emma Healy ex-Mumsnet employee address's transphobia on feminist boards.

272 replies

crispbuttyfan · 18/04/2018 18:37

What do we think of this?

"Firstly, labelling what goes on on MN as 'discussion' completely misrepresents what is going on. Whilst, yes, I wouldn't argue that there isn't ~some~ 'civil' discussion, the vast majority descends into scaremongering and hate speech."

"There were many staff members, me included, who raised concerns about what was being said on site - but it was never taken on board. Any criticism has been dismissed as a smear attempt by 'trans activists' rather than actually thinking about what was being said"

Post edited by MNHQ

OP posts:
AngryAttackKittens · 19/04/2018 10:02

I always wonder, don't the people who think that way have families? How do they manage at Christmas, weddings, etc? Do they try to no-platform Auntie Jean Who's Always Going On About Immigrants?

MsBeaujangles · 19/04/2018 10:06

If we step back from the content - we have two groups of people who have competing interests. The pattern seems to be that an event happens that leads one group to feel heartened about their interests being met/ protected, some celebration (sometimes crowing/ antagonising) follows. This leads to the other group feeling their interests are more under threat, that leads to heightened emotions, this leads to a spectrum of undesirable behaviour.
I think all parties would do well to be mindful of their actual interests and keep focusing on them. The only evidence of transphobia I have seen on Mumsnet has quickly been deleted. I do see posts that are likely to antagonise people from both groups. I also see posts that make inferences that are likely to antagonise (e.g. gender critical women reduce women to vaginas / gender identity can be reduced to the clothing people wear).
If I was mediating the discussions on here, I would highlight that inferences are inferences and not facts (when they are made). I would also keep exploring the interests of parties (what it was that they wanted), and encourage them to express their interests. This would likely lead to a far more productive discussion. I would also recognise that some things just reflect a desire to vent pent up frustration.

Ellenripleysalienbaby · 19/04/2018 10:06

The problem with this is that whilst it sounds entirely reasonable it ignores the sheer breadth of what is now labelled 'transphobic'.

Yes, this. Take these statements for instance:

Women don't have dicks.
Men cannot become women.
Transwomen are men.
Only women can have periods and give birth.
Shon Faye, Paris Lees, India Willoughby, Jane Fae, Munroe Bergdorf, Lily Madigan and Tara Wolf are all men who have decided for a myriad of reasons that they are more comfortable living according to the stereotypes that they perceive 'make a woman'.

Are any of those statements 'transphobic'? Hate speech?

MsBeaujangles · 19/04/2018 10:09

For clarity - I did mean mediating not moderating. There is no way mods should or could play a mediation role!

Yarnswift · 19/04/2018 10:09

If what is alleged here is true then obviously I don't condone Ms. Healy's actions, but it is clear she feels very strongly about this.

The use of the ‘but’ qualifier negates the first half of the sentence. You know what they say - everything before the but is bull.

I’m sure she does feel strongly about it. I feel rather strongly on a number of issues. It doesn’t take give me carte blanch to break the law. She broke the law. She needs to face the consequences

Let’s be absolutely clear on what harm could occur from a breach and release of MN posting data plus identifying data. It could put women and children at risk of serious harm or death.
That is not hyperbole- there are many posters here who have escaped from violent, abusive relationships and are now living free from their violent exes. That data could imperil that.
That’s before you even start on the women who have divulged medical details, addiction issues, domestic abuse, financial abuse and a multitude of other things.

I work with patient data in my job (I’m a scientist.) I have to abide by extremely strict rules on what I can and cannot do. If I feel strongly about something ( and I have in the past) there is a reporting mechanism that can be used legally.
If I stole data the way Ms. Healy has, I’d expect criminal charges and to never work a day in my industry again. Data is important. The security of data of vulnerable patients is important. The data of women speaking anonymously about personal issues is important.

MsMcWoodle · 19/04/2018 10:09

Yes, and the more we bend over, the more we will get fucked.

MsMcWoodle · 19/04/2018 10:10

That was to Ellen

MsBeaujangles · 19/04/2018 10:16

Ellen. I think it is human nature to infer the intent behind communication and I don't think it would be unreasonable for people to think the intent behind those statements may be to hurt/provoke trans people.

However, as a frequent user of this board, I expect your interests lay in wanting to ensure that a separate category/ label is reserved for natal females; that we have the language and laws that enable natal females interests to be protected.

I expect your intent is to be heard, to speak plainly and that your statements are fuelled by frustration. I have every sympathy. I also think that the statements could be worded differently and pack more of a punch because, by being less provocative, they could be harder to ignore/dismiss.

Ellenripleysalienbaby · 19/04/2018 10:24

Ellen. I think it is human nature to infer the intent behind communication and I don't think it would be unreasonable for people to think the intent behind those statements may be to hurt/provoke trans people.

However, as a frequent user of this board, I expect your interests lay in wanting to ensure that a separate category/ label is reserved for natal females; that we have the language and laws that enable natal females interests to be protected.

Well yes, quite.

It's why feminists weren't using the sort of language I have used above up until recently. They didn't have to. If those sorts of statements came from a true place of 'transphobia' we would have been using them way back even in the time that trans women lived amongst women quite happily, used our toilets and just quietly got on with their lives. But we weren't.

MsMcWoodle · 19/04/2018 10:28

I think that Ellen was being clear. Let's not tie our selves in linguistic knots to please people who will never be pleased.

MsBeaujangles · 19/04/2018 10:35

I don't think linguistic knots are needed.

What I do think is worthwhile is generating a compelling narrative that clearly lays out the points you are trying to make in a way that will engage the widest audience possible.

TerranceandPhilip · 19/04/2018 10:52

No, it would be because some TRAs cannot tolerate anything other than complete capitulation to their ideology, an ideology that does not withstand the slightest bit of critical analysis

Oooh the irony....Grin

MsBeaujangles · 19/04/2018 11:00

Terrence. I am assuming from your last post that you think that some/all of the feminist ideology communicated on this board doesn't stand up to critical analysis.

I am always keen to critically analyse my thinking. Can you share some of your critical analysis. I am keen to challenge my thinking.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 19/04/2018 11:21

If what is alleged here is true then obviously I don't condone Ms. Healy's actions, but it is clear she feels very strongly about this.

What would happen if she had been strongly pro choice for abortion? Would it be ok that she save and steal Pro Life users' posts in the same way to publish online later? Misreppresent what they said, tell lies about what they said? Publish their personal data?

Or if she were Pro-life? Publishing User posts and misrepresenting them , telling lies that they condoned the murder of babies

Or any controversial topic for that matter.

The TRAs think they have a monopoly on free speech and they try to crush any opinion that does not fit with their ideology.

That's totalitarianism

AngryAttackKittens · 19/04/2018 11:28

Some religious conservatives in the US feel so strongly that abortion is evil that they've shot doctors who provide abortions, and they maintain a website specifically for the purposes of naming and providing details about those doctors (home addresses, where their kids go to school, in some cases the routes they take to and from work). Is this OK? They feel very strongly about it, after all.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 19/04/2018 11:32

No MsBeaujangles, the best you will get is a Grin

TerranceandPhilip · 19/04/2018 11:58

No MsBeaujangles, the best you will get is a grin

Correct. I'm not going to play as the best I'll get is a pile on and an accusation of derailing. Most likely accusations of being a man and personal attacks.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 19/04/2018 12:05

Than what did you post for then? Needing a bit of attention?

AngryAttackKittens · 19/04/2018 12:07

Correct. I'm not going to play as the best I'll get is a pile on and an accusation of derailing. Most likely accusations of being a man and personal attacks.

How convenient!

Ellenripleysalienbaby · 19/04/2018 12:28

Correct. I'm not going to play as the best I'll get is a pile on and an accusation of derailing. Most likely accusations of being a man and personal attacks

Well, you could start by giving a definition of 'woman' that does not contain the word 'woman'. I really am keen to listen to other opinions about this. I read twitter accounts such as Shon Faye and Paris Lees to see the other side of the coin. I take on board opposing opinions and I don't agree with the pile ons that we have sometimes seen on here.

But still, no one can give an answer to the above. And if they can't even do that, then there really isn't anywhere to go. It would be a great start.

R0wantrees · 19/04/2018 12:41

Important to be aware of the actual ideology/activism which EH was defending...

Presentation given at NUS Women's 18 'How to deal with TERFS'
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3222263-Slide-show-on-How-to-Deal-with-TERFs
www.slideshare.net/RowanDavis4/how-to-deal-with-terfs-93651217

Emma Healy ex-Mumsnet employee address's transphobia on feminist boards.
Lancelottie · 19/04/2018 13:07

From that presentation's own handy glossary:

'Trans: someone who's gender is not exclusively that they were assigned at birth. Cis: Someone who’s gender is exclusively that they were assigned at birth'

[I'll ignore their grammar through gritted teeth]

No one assigned my gender at birth.

No one is a walking stereotype of their gender.

Trans therefore covers everyone, and is of no use as a term.

Do they actually read what they are writing?

MsBeaujangles · 19/04/2018 13:14

Unfortunately Terrence, your stance fuels people's beliefs that you don't have a critical analysis that will stand up to critique!

I have no doubt that you have narrative that compels you to hold on to your views, just as I have one for mine. I do expect that your narrative could be one that may be 'thin' when it is challenged by logic.

I am very open to exploring my narratives, and changing them along the way. It makes me feel engaged in the world. Positive things come from discovering aspects of my narratives don't hold up even though I can find the process unsettling.

Neither you nor I will change our narratives as a result of a 'pile on' or because others tell us we are wrong. It will come from engaging with each other's narratives and critically analysing them. Why don't you give this a go?

GaspingShark · 19/04/2018 18:00

For example ; if I refuse to hire sally because she’s Jewish/Muslim/Christian then I am discriminating and quite rightly I should be pulled up on it. If I abuse sally in person due to her religion I’m committing an offence. If I punch sally to the ground while she’s praying at speakers corner I expect to be hauled before the law.

You cannot say that discussion of an ideology is transphobic. It is not. If feminists were bashing trans people in the streets then you’d have a point. But in fact, the violence is both one way and the other way. Where are the feminists punching transwomen? They don’t exist. But TRA activists are threatening and physically hurting feminists. For talking about how this ideology affects women and girls.

This "unless I punch anyone" definition ignores the more insidious impact of dehumanisation and scaremongering.

The post comparing trans campaigners to the Paedophile Information Exchange is still up, FFS. Buffalo Bill from Silence Of The Lambs is seen as a legitimate case study. You seem to be to going down the BNP route of saying "it's not islamophobia because it's rational and proportional". (It's perfectly legal to say that. I've seen it in election literature.)

The ad hominem dismissal of dissenting voices as sealions, trolls, goady fuckers, infiltrators, misogynists or TRAs suggests otherwise. The amount of selective blindness on here is awesome. I think your fears are excessive. That, if nothing else, renders you, literally, phobic, in my book.

I always wonder, don't the people who think that way have families? How do they manage at Christmas, weddings, etc? Do they try to no-platform Auntie Jean Who's Always Going On About Immigrants?

They don't deny she's xenophobic though.

ReluctantCamper · 19/04/2018 18:06

I'm intrigued GaspingShark, do you consider all gender critical posts here to be beyond the pale? A wide range of opinions are given. Do you think any of the posters may be making valid points about self ID?

Swipe left for the next trending thread