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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Emma Healy ex-Mumsnet employee address's transphobia on feminist boards.

272 replies

crispbuttyfan · 18/04/2018 18:37

What do we think of this?

"Firstly, labelling what goes on on MN as 'discussion' completely misrepresents what is going on. Whilst, yes, I wouldn't argue that there isn't ~some~ 'civil' discussion, the vast majority descends into scaremongering and hate speech."

"There were many staff members, me included, who raised concerns about what was being said on site - but it was never taken on board. Any criticism has been dismissed as a smear attempt by 'trans activists' rather than actually thinking about what was being said"

Post edited by MNHQ

OP posts:
RealityHasALiberalBias · 18/04/2018 21:43

Susan I think I get where you’re coming from, but really, if you feel the moderators are doing their job, then there’s no point in trying to change the behaviour of individual posters.

The majority of behaviour and opinion on here is civil, intelligent and well balanced, certainly better than any other forum I’ve posted on. That’s about the best anyone can hope for on the internet. Frankly, if you’re hoping that there’s a way to keep the debate open but stop people accusing us of being transphobes, I’m afraid that’s not possible. They promote “no debate” for a reason, and it’s that they won’t tolerate any dissent.

It’s clearly wrong to say that no-one ever posts anything transphobic on here, so if you say you’re arguing only with the people who make that claim, then I’d refer you to 386:

xkcd.com/386/

NannyOggsKnickers · 18/04/2018 21:47

Can I just did that while I have seen some tweets that are goady and a bit insensitive on trans topics I have never, ever, ever seen anyone on these threads insighting violence against trans people or expressing actual hatred of trans people.

I have also never seen ANYONE organising a violent campaign of intimidation against trans people or organisations. They’ve been critical but never hateful

Which is more than I can say for the TRA tweet mob.

thebewilderness · 18/04/2018 21:56

The only problem transgender advocates have with MN is that the women here are not carrying water for men.
Feminists have had this women's right to say no opinion for 100 years and more. The fact that the rest of the women have just realized what has been done to endanger them is the bit transgender advocates do not like.

MaisyPops · 18/04/2018 22:01

Agree nanny.
Quite a bit of pot+kettle here.

But what would make me really happy is if people would differentiate between the radical TRA lobby who want to shut women up and transgender people as a group.

It's why 'peak trans' is (with hindsight) a really crap phrase.

thebewilderness · 18/04/2018 22:04

What we have spent most of our time talking about is the GRA and EA and the Self ID amendments proposed. The interpretation and application has already endangered women and girls.

AskBasil · 18/04/2018 22:07

Seeing as how "transphobia" seems to mean "not being a biology-denier", I really am not bothered how transphobic a bunch of lunatics on Twitter think MN are.

If you think a penis is a sex neutral organ but a brain is a sexed one, then your opinion on transphobia (to say nothing of biology) is really not of much interest to me.

summerinthecountry · 18/04/2018 22:08

I am certainly not transphobic. I am a normal mother from an average background. I support anyone choosing to be any gender but draw the line at changing rooms and women’s spaces (who doesn’t) so a separate unisex option should be available - whilst privacy is maintained in male and female environments. It is not difficult to think of a solution

thebewilderness · 18/04/2018 22:27

What I think of you crispybuttfan is that you are a practicing misogynist.

Mumsnut · 18/04/2018 22:28

Yes Maisy Pops - I have started to think of myself as 'peak tra'

MaisyPops · 18/04/2018 22:31

Same mums.
It took a few rabbit hole threads for me to reorder my thoughts on the whole thing.
Peak TRA lobby sums my view up too.

Temporaryname098 · 18/04/2018 22:32

If MN is to be classed as transphobic, but obviously transphobic posts are taken down, then I guess at least 50% of posts that have trans elements are taken down?

Yip what is hateful is best seen from the eyes of the victim, but the victim should always try to consider intent when making such assertions.

ErrolTheDragon · 18/04/2018 22:36

But what would make me really happy is if people would differentiate between the radical TRA lobby who want to shut women up and transgender people as a group.

IME most posters do exactly that, most of the time.

Winewinewinegin · 18/04/2018 22:45

*Seeing as how "transphobia" seems to mean "not being a biology-denier", I really am not bothered how transphobic a bunch of lunatics on Twitter think MN are.

If you think a penis is a sex neutral organ but a brain is a sexed one, then your opinion on transphobia (to say nothing of biology) is really not of much interest to me.*

StarStarStar

HerFemaleness · 18/04/2018 22:47

Yip what is hateful is best seen from the eyes of the victim

Yet our justice system removes this decision from the victim and places it in the hands of people who are emotionally removed from the situation. Honestly, listen to yourself.

What we understand to be transphobia, misogyny, islamophobia etc, these are social constructs and they wouldnt exist if not for broad consensus on what constitutes an act which falls under those categories. There is no consensus that unbelief in ideas like 'born in the wrong body' or 'gendered souls' or 'brain sex' constitutes hate against transgender people any more than unbelief in God is considered hate against all god worshipping religious people.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 18/04/2018 22:55

I agree with others who have stated that there have been transphobic posts and there may be transphobic posters

That seems fairly obvious

I disagree that mumsnet is a transphobic site

MaisyPops · 18/04/2018 22:59

errol
Many do, but that clarity can drift as threads get heated.
If gender critical debates want to expose TRAs for their games then it makes sense to make it repeatedly and explicitly clear that having an issue with a lobby group and certain agendas is different to disliking a whole group of people.

E.g. I can recall being exasperated on a thread regarding a well known youtube who thinks lesbians should sleep with individuals who have penises. Quite a few of us (biologically correctly) pointed out said youtuber is a boy wearing a dress trying to silence women. But look at that from a TRA perspective and suddenly it becomes gold dust to 'prove' people hate trans. You know and I know that's not what the comment means, but it's worth considering before posting 'could what I'm about to post help facilitate someone play the nasty women hate everyone card?' If so, rephrase it to make a clear distinction.

TotoroToday · 18/04/2018 23:04

I'm a woman and I think MN has a MASSIVE transphobia problem. It's horrific.

nauticant · 18/04/2018 23:08

If there have been misogynistic posts on MN, does that mean MN is a misogynistic site?

I'm getting a strong derailing vibe from posts about only black people can say what's racist or only women can say what's misogynistic. The profound difference with trans is that being black or being a natal woman aren't characteristics that one can an identify into. (Yeah, I know that we aren't allowed to think this but I refuse to go down that rabbit hole.)

If this wasn't the case then a white person who has identified as black can say what is racist. But then you're caught in a loop of illogic because you would be saying that white people can't say what's racist while at the same time that actually they can so long as they've assumed an appropriate identity.

trans1976 · 18/04/2018 23:16

If what is alleged here is true then obviously I don't condone Ms. Healy's actions, but it is clear she feels very strongly about this.

ErrolTheDragon · 18/04/2018 23:17

Many do, but that clarity can drift as threads get heated.

Yes - it's very similar to we've always had with old-school MRAs. Say 'men' rather than some men once and it's 'whaa... see, you feminazis hate all men'.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 18/04/2018 23:17

but it is clear she feels very strongly about this

That's definitely fair to say

trans1976 · 18/04/2018 23:18

quote:"FloraFox
Meanwhile the vast majority of people in the country do not consider the comments to be transphobic."

How do you know have you asked them all? Do you have any friends who aren't feminists or do you spend all your social time in the company of those who share the exact same point of view as you do? If so it can be easy to delude yourself your perspective is the "correct" one

lunamoth581 · 18/04/2018 23:25

I think that keeping the tone of the debate civil is good thing that everyone should strive to do. I think that differentiating between trans people as a whole and the current very vocal TRA lobby group is something that we need to do.

However, to those TRAs (who do not represent trans people as a whole) anything other than complete and total 100% agreement with what they say is hateful, hateful bigotry. We can be as respectful and circumspect as we want, but they (the very vocal TRAs) will still interpret anything other than 100% agreement as bigotry.

These (TRAs) are people who believe that biological fact is bigotry. No amount of reason or rationality or politeness is going to change that.

I think we need to be respectful and careful with our words. But we should also be mindful that that's not going to make an ounce of difference to this very specific group of TRAs.

As a feminists, I'm concerned with the way women's and girl's voices have been censored and silenced. I think trying to find a way to voice women's and girl's issues and concerns around this that is palatable to TRAs on Twitter (again, who are not all trans people and do not represent all trans people!) is an exercise in futility.

I am fully on board with They Go Low, We Go High. I am fully on board with respectful discussion. I am fully on board with not stereotyping or being derogatory or hateful to trans people.

I just also think we need to keep in mind that what the TRA lobby see as transphobia is basic human biology and the basic reality of living in the world as a female human being.

AngryAttackKittens · 18/04/2018 23:26

If what is alleged here is true then obviously I don't condone Ms. Healy's actions, but it is clear she feels very strongly about this.

So that makes breaching the data protection act alright, then?

TeaScum · 18/04/2018 23:27

*I am fully on board with They Go Low, We Go High. I am fully on board with respectful discussion. I am fully on board with not stereotyping or being derogatory or hateful to trans people.

I just also think we need to keep in mind that what the TRA lobby see as transphobia is basic human biology and the basic reality of living in the world as a female human being.*

Amen.