Emma Healy ex-Mumsnet employee address's transphobia on feminist boards.

[crispbuttyfan]

What do we think of this?

"Firstly, labelling what goes on on MN as 'discussion' completely misrepresents what is going on. Whilst, yes, I wouldn't argue that there isn't ~some~ 'civil' discussion, the vast majority descends into scaremongering and hate speech."

"There were many staff members, me included, who raised concerns about what was being said on site - but it was never taken on board. Any criticism has been dismissed as a smear attempt by 'trans activists' rather than actually thinking about what was being said"

Post edited by MNHQ

I think your fears are excessive.

But you don't get to decide that women's fears of men and what they can do, no matter what shape these men take, is excessive.

For many women it is entirely proportionate. Research has shown that male trans exhibit the same violence and crime tendencies as other males. They are no different to other males. Why should women not fear them if their experiences with males have taught them fear?

"I think your fears are excessive."

Name a fear that someone has stated here that you deem to be excessive and I am fairly sure that there is evidence of it happening either in the UK or elsewhere

I think your fears are excessive.

These are the things I'm afraid of

• being punched to the ground at women's place meeting. This has happened, so seems a legit worry

• not being able to guarantee same sex intimate care for my mum should she need it. I have heard about a transman nurse providing intimate care to men with dementia who have requested same sex carers. My mum knows that transwomen are men and would detest being touched by a strange man

• I am afraid for the women prisoners currently locked up with rapists. There is already a recorded case of sexual assault taking place under these circumstances

which of these fears is groundless and why?

Come on GaspingShark, put my mind at rest.

Name a fear that someone has stated here that you deem to be excessive and I am fairly sure that there is evidence of it happening either in the UK or elsewhere.

That doesn't make it fair or proportionate. Explain to me how what you say that is different from me saying that I should be afraid of black people.

Oh look, the Nr. 1 MRA soundbit.

I'm sorry. Are you saying that even through a transman nurse is abusing the trust of families and patients, I shouldn't worry about it happening again?

Are you saying because there are women locked up now with dangerous rapists I shouldn't worry about their safety?

Help me out here, I don't follow your argument.

and the threat of violence was ever used to keep women in their place. I have never seen a feminist threaten to 'kerbstomp' a trans person (I had to look up what that was don't bother, it's horrible).

Do I think a TRA is going to come round to my house and kerbstomp me? No.

Does it make me think twice about attending a women's place meeting? Yes.

Is that OK? Absolutely fucking not.

gaspingshark that’s a tu quoque argument - it’s ‘whataboutery’.

‘I’m worried about female prisoners being housed with Male sex offenders’
‘WHAT ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE?? Are you scared of them??’

It’s an illogical argument that derails, reverses and tries to slur the other person. There’s no connection between black people and transsexual sex offenders being housed with female prisoners.

That doesn't make it fair or proportionate. Explain to me how what you say that is different from me saying that I should be afraid of black people.

Men are responsible for 98% of sexual assaults on women among other things, in my opinion that makes the fear fair and proportionate.

What is the difference between black and white people apart from their skin tone? There are a hell of a lot of differences between men and women.

I'm sure someone else will be able to more eloquently explain the flaw in your argument but all I know is that as a white woman seeing a black woman in the changing room has never made me fearful but seeing a man regardless of race definitely would.

Do black people routinely threaten to harm you because of what you believe GaspingShark?

Because TRAs routinely threaten to harm gender critical feminists because of what they believe.

Sometimes they even follow through after chatting about it on twitter.

Ergo my fear of their violence is justified and borne out by evidence.

I'm intrigued GaspingShark, do you consider all gender critical posts here to be beyond the pale? A wide range of opinions are given. Do you think any of the posters may be making valid points about self ID?

I've bitten off more than I can for personal reasons chew here, so at least for now I'll just say this:

Honestly, I'd be ashamed of trans friends seeing me saying stuff e.g. "I err on the side of including them as much as possible", because I don't think these rights are mine to confer.

Also honestly, I don't know if therefore that means I'm telling traumatised women to just grin and bear distressing stuff.

And also honestly, Mumsnet wouldn't be my first choice for enlightening advice on that question.

But prove me wrong. I'll start a thread if you like, I'll read it but I can't really tend it beyond the OP atm.

Not answering any of the last three posts requesting a clarification on the whataboutery/Black people argument?

Has it occurred to you that you might actually be arguing with a black gender critical feminist?

Honestly, I'd be ashamed of trans friends seeing me saying stuff e.g. "I err on the side of including them as much as possible"

Ah, so we should surrender our rights without a murmer because you are performatively woke.

right oh.

*Also honestly, I don't know if therefore that means I'm telling traumatised women to just grin and bear distressing stuff.

And also honestly, Mumsnet wouldn't be my first choice for enlightening advice on that question.*

Yes, I mean why would you talk to actual women about women's experiences? Waste of fucking time that. You're much better asking Paris Lees about that shit.

You are truly the gift that keeps giving @GaspingShark.

@GaspingShark

You certainly do have a dissenting voice and I expect some of your points have been dismissed as sea lioning or goadyness. Some posters may have referred to Silence of the Lambs and Buffalo bill, but you don't need to engage with this.

Your contribution to getting your views dismissed is your denying/dismissing/deflecting well reasoned concerns of posters. You might be more successful in influencing others if you demonstrate that you understand posters concerns and where they are coming from and then try and demonstrate why their concerns are misguided.

Explain to me how what you say that is different from me saying that I should be afraid of black people.

Would you say that to a transwoman who is scared to use the gents because they are worried about being attacked?

that’s a tu quoque argument

In addition to the regular use of tu quoque - we also get appeal to authority, appeal to non-authority, no true Scotsman, argument from silence, post hoc, and on and on and on.

Every. Single. Fallacy. Going. All. The. Bloody. Time.

We should really put logic classes onto the National Curriculum.

Not answering any of the last three posts requesting a clarification on the whataboutery/Black people argument?

Has it occurred to you that you might actually be arguing with a black gender critical feminist?

that’s a tu quoque argument

It was intended as a comparison. I think the gays would be a tighter comparison but there's already a thread today dismissing section 28 comparisons. It's /all/ tendentious demonisation, aka prejudice.

@MsBeaujangles I just said I don't know if therefore that means I'm telling traumatised women to just grin and bear distressing stuff. I meant it. Let's do it.

Hell yes. This is being fed by the state of our universities- the no platforming and safe spacing and thought police. In my day (bahhh, melchitt!) you went to see speakers at uni whose ideas you hated just so you could shred them at question time. You were exposed, shocked and horrified by new concepts. Your eyes were opened by disturbing stuff and you developed the rhetorical claws to debate and dissect and dissent. That was as a science undergrad so I didn’t get as much of it done as I’d have liked but the attitude then was ‘bring me your ideology and I will argue it’

Not reporting academics for thought crime
Not requiring trigger warnings on course content
Not denying people a platform

#nodebate would have had you laughed out of the room.

I really worry about this generation of students and young people. If they are not exposed to horrendous ideas and encouraged to debate and argue against them, how will they fight real tyranny when they see it? How will they be able to stop people controlling them?

I see it on here all the time and I’m pretty sure I could guess the ages of most of these posters and whether they’d done a liberal arts type education. It’s really depressing.

It was intended as a comparison

Ok, It wasn’t a comparison. It was whataboutery. A comparison has to have some sort of analogous basis. Whataboutery turns the argument away - it deflects from what the ‘asker’ asked in the first place. To then deflect into an issue like race is actually a DARVO type argument - it’s a reversal and an insinuation the asker is racist. Now the focus is on the asker - is she racist? She feels put on the spot. She must answer the accusation of racism! So she derails onto pointing out she’s not racist.
But that wasn’t the initial question was it? The asker’s initial question was whether someone was worried or not about Male bodies sex offenders being housed in female prison estate.

But now we’re not talking about that, we are seeing someone flail around trying to prove they’re not racist.

It’s a powerful technique, and it’s one the Russian bots use a lot. DARVO is more power/abuser territory and you see that a lot with MRAs.

So anyway, we were talking about female prisoners sharing showers with mae bodies sex offenders, right?

It was intended as a comparison

I didn't take your argument as whataboutery Gasping, I read it as positing that if it's islamophobic to fear Muslims because of terrorist attacks then you can sort of understand why this whole "you tell me something you think I'm irrationally afraid of and I'll show you where it's happening" approach might indeed be... well... phobia.

Did I read you right?

Hey GaspingShark, how about instead of patronisingly dismissing mumsnet as an unsuitable place to glean the views of women, and so kindly offering to start a thread telling us why we’re so terribly wrong (pre-emptively popping in a caveat that you won’t actually engage with your own thread), you stick around and read some of the discussions that are already here?

There are plenty, and they would easily answer all of your questions.

It's /all/ tendentious demonisation, aka prejudice

I'll ask again: are transwomen who want to use women's areas because they are worried about being attacked by men in men's areas, 'prejudiced' against men? How come their fears are legitimate but the fears of women are 'excessive'?

This is being fed by the state of our universities.

Social constructionism taking over the liberal academy is responsible for so much of this. The graduates all go on to mediating class jobs - media, think tanks, policy wonks, third sector management.

These twits don't even think material reality exists, so how anyone thinks they can make and implement sensible policy for the real world that real people live in quite beggars belief.

(This is my hobbyhorse, BTW. I shouldn't let myself get started else I'll take over the thread and never stop. Will go and watch telly in a supreme act of self control.)

Yarnswift I'm genuinely asking in good faith, but is yours just a hobby interest in forms of argument? Feel free not to answer, I just wondered.