Emma Healy ex-Mumsnet employee address's transphobia on feminist boards.

[crispbuttyfan]

What do we think of this?

"Firstly, labelling what goes on on MN as 'discussion' completely misrepresents what is going on. Whilst, yes, I wouldn't argue that there isn't ~some~ 'civil' discussion, the vast majority descends into scaremongering and hate speech."

"There were many staff members, me included, who raised concerns about what was being said on site - but it was never taken on board. Any criticism has been dismissed as a smear attempt by 'trans activists' rather than actually thinking about what was being said"

Post edited by MNHQ

I just also think we need to keep in mind that what the TRA lobby see as transphobia is basic human biology and the basic reality of living in the world as a female human being.

The ultimate TERF is mother nature, in that humans are a sexually dimorphic species. It's one thing to alter your appearance to the extent possible in order to try to more closely resemble a person of the opposite sex in order to alleviate dysphoria, but if someone refuses to accept that we are a sexually dimorphic species within which it's not possible to truly change sex then tilting at that windmill is going to make their life miserable, because you can't control how other people perceive you.

MN is NOT transphobic and neither are most of the posters. I would argue that all we are trying to do is discuss the situation.

People here are just getting to grips with what is going on. I doubt anyone who posts on trans topics is purposely trying to hurt or frighten trans people.

As has been evidenced from previous threads. If a trans posters turns up people are unfailingly reasonable, kind and understanding towards that person.

I have NEVER seen violent, hurtful, hateful language being used towards trans posters. NEVER.

The only thing I have seen is deliberate misgendering when talking about trans celebrities/ spokespeople. Which is not nice but hardly the same as the ‘Kill All TERFs’ shouted by a lot of activists.

NannyOgg

I do not see that as misgendering. I see it as correctly referring to their sex. I do not believe it is kind to people to pander to them and patronise them. Far better to tell the truth and not treat them like small children.

@SusanBunch

My point is that you as non-trans do not get to dictate what is and what is not transphobic because you do not experience it.

The problem with this is that whilst it sounds entirely reasonable it ignores the sheer breadth of what is now labelled 'transphobic'. I do not believe that biological males are women. That is considered transphobic by some because it by extension says 'transwomen are not women'. How do we square that circle? Do we deny biological facts in order to protect some other people's feelings? How far do we go with that?

Lifelong I have been asked by some other posters not to engage anymore in this argument because it doesn't come across well on here apparently, so I won't. See upthread though where I put two hypothetical posts- one I considered non-transphobic and one transphobic.

susan

Where did they say that?

Thats not right you should post where you want to

I was told it came across as sealioning and trying to control or change the behaviour of other posters. That’s not what I wanted it to come across as.
To be fair they did not tell me to stop posting in so many words but it was made clear that what I was posting was not very popular.
To be fair, I guess a lot of posters are fed up with being told by people what they can and cannot say so I totally understand irritation at other viewpoints. I will try in the future to avoid sounding like I am telling people what to do.

I need someone to give a definition of what going high actually is, because it's a nice little soundbite, but so far most of what I've seen being described as "going high", is that women should lie about the sex of the people whose misogyny and sexism we are discussing.

Look. It is really easy to show that MN is NOT a transphobic site

Yes. There are some posters who post transphobic things. Who reports those transphobic posts? We do! All of us PeakTRA posters (thanks mums I am stealing that!).

Those of us who are trans, have trans friends and colleagues and those of us who have never knowingly met a trans person ever! We report posts that overstep the mark, we have them deleted. Why? Because we find them objectionable!

As have been said so very many times, those robust discussions are not anti trans, but they are anti the current vile and aggressive TRA campaign of obfuscation and lies - that is real life aggression, the sort that hurts and hospitalises rather than the sort that make someone feel bad!

So, cripsbutty to answer your original question - I thought the content of that very ill advised posting was more of the usual one sided TRA supporting disinformation. And the poster is probably now a very scared young lady who is just realising that she has possibly made an error of quite epic proportions. She will become yet more of the collateral damage in the 'war' TRAs have started on 'being female' (to use a Bushism).

Have you noted that the majority of those who become collateral damage are women, real/natal women? A quick google, or search through threads here will highlight quite a few names of women whose lives have been irrevocably changed because they stepped into the fray - on both sides!

Think on that before you continue... and if you find yourself deciding to ignore it, accept it, perhaps you need to further examine your attitudes towards women as a whole. Do you really think so little of us?

Susan

Emotions are running high. I think your posts are always pragamatic and reasonable, even if they may go against the prevailing wind. Don't take it personally, we need a range of opinions. Keep saying what you need to say - we need debate here, that's what we are fighting for

Yes the 'going high' is a bit annoying. I think we all know how to behave.

I reserve the right to call certain TRAs vicious cunts though

As has been evidenced from previous threads. If a trans posters turns up people are unfailingly reasonable, kind and understanding towards that person.

If anything, too reasonable, kind and understanding ime. Walking on eggshells gentle. Where women will robustly argue with each other and even be dismissive or snarky, some do change their tone for trans identified males. Especially when the trans people in question make a point of saying how vulnerable they are and how difficult their life has been. As if women don't have histories and aren't vulnerable!

But the problem isn't that women aren't being kind and understanding, it's that they aren't being accomodating enough. Some trans males want nothing less than making themselves central to everything women have - our politics, our language, our spaces, everything.

So for example it's not enough for women on Mumsnet to listen and be understanding to trans male posters, this particular type of trans male wants to be flattered and, to be frank here, they want to be made to feel like a delicate and noble lady. The most ladiest of ladies in fact, being fawned over by a circle of baser handmaids. It's a fetish and yes NATALT but some of them are. Quite a large number of them actually. Some of them aren't even aware of what they are doing because they have no experience at all of what being a woman is - they think that the glow they get from being fawned over is evidence of their femininity.

It is not transphobic to treat trans identifying people as regular people. That means snarking at them and disagreeing with them as much as it means laughing with them and being supportive to them. It's not transphobic to refuse to be cast in supportive roles in some dudes fantasy!

But trans activists are never going to agree with that. Ffs some of them think that talking about women's bodies is transphobic if we don't include penises! How can you reason with that??

As has been evidenced from previous threads. If a trans posters turns up people are unfailingly reasonable, kind and understanding towards that person.

I have NEVER seen violent, hurtful, hateful language being used towards trans posters. NEVER.

I believe that you believe that.

Susan, that is a deliberate misrepresentation of what I said. Saying that you are coming across as trying to control the way other women express themselves is not the same thing as "stfu", and I think you know that.

I've never logged in to typical male forums such as top gear, football forums or Britain first or anything like that.

If I did, I bet everything I own that they contain open, overt transphobia and that it goes unremarked on.

My DP doesn't know the word transphobia. He thinks a cross dresser is called a 'tranny'.

But the ire of the trans lobby will only ever be aimed at women. Our polite, informed debates are held up as vicious hate speech. Meanwhile actual vicious hate speech flourishes unchallenged all over social media and in chat forums worldwide.

What cowards transactivists are.

As I said Kittens, I am sympathetic to the fact that women are fed up with being told to police what they say and I will take that into account in the future and try to gauge tone etc. It's not just on this thread by the way. I did also clarify that nobody has said in so many words to stop posting but rather that tone and content not welcome/appreciated. I just wanted to explain because another poster had directed a question at me and I didn't just want to ignore it.

Interesting to compare that statement to what you said upthread, Susan.

Lifelong I have been asked by some other posters not to engage anymore in this argument because it doesn't come across well on here apparently, so I won't.

Except you were not in fact asked not to engage in the argument, which again, I think you know.

Yep I appreciated that susan

OK, I phrased that wrong Kittens and I did correct it in my very next post, if you check. It was more a feeling that my posts were not welcome, not a direct statement made to me to not post on here. I don't know what else to say really?

Saying "btw you're kind of coming across like X" is not "you're not welcome here".

Fair point. As I said, it was a feeling (my feeling, my perception), not just on this thread, on several others too. I have said that I will be mindful of the feedback in the future.

If you think the Times is the rabid right wing of the press you need to give your head a wobble. It’s a slightly right of centre, mainstream broadsheet that’s one of the few where the quality hasn’t nosedived in recent years. The writing is decent, the comments section is not the cesspit you find in the tabloids or the guardian.
The Guardian is now a left wing daily mail - it’s beyond parody (and I say that as someone who considers themselves left wing politically.)

MN does not have ‘a problem with transphobia’ - it is not phobic to discuss the impacts this ideology has on the lives, safety and rights of women and girls.

You are conflating abuse of a person with critique of an ideology.

For example ; if I refuse to hire sally because she’s Jewish/Muslim/Christian then I am discriminating and quite rightly I should be pulled up on it. If I abuse sally in person due to her religion I’m committing an offence. If I punch sally to the ground while she’s praying at speakers corner I expect to be hauled before the law.

However if I take to a discussion board to voice my opposition to say, blasphemy laws being brought in in the UK ( which they nearly were..) or to say I disagree with the treatment of homosexuals under more extreme branches or Christianity or that I find a certain aspect of Orthodox Judaism troubling and prefer the stance in Reform Judaism then I am NOT being abusive, anythingophobic and i am not breaking the law. One could in fact argue that criticism of religious ideology is a necessity in an open and secular society.

You cannot say that discussion of an ideology is transphobic. It is not. If feminists were bashing trans people in the streets then you’d have a point. But in fact, the violence is both one way and the other way. Where are the feminists punching transwomen? They don’t exist. But TRA activists are threatening and physically hurting feminists. For talking about how this ideology affects women and girls

Yeah, I mean, I'm pretty far left, and even so I realize that The Times is not Breibart. That kind of anyone who's even a few degrees from my position ideologically is The Enemy thinking is part of what got us into this mess.

Susan - I think there are times when someone is so keen to get their point across that entire threads become the X Is Determined To Get Their Point Across Thread.

I know this because I am often guilty of it myself. It doesn't feel like it at the time - because I'm so determined to get my point across! - but when I go back and read, I cringe at myself because I've gone on and on and Ariston.

Don't take offence, but this thread did descend into a bit of that, you know? I don't think anybody's saying you're not entitled to your view, more that you were very clear and articulate about it already and the thread would be better if the conversation moved on a bit.

I'm mostly posting this to remind myself to trust that if I've made a point several times already, then people know where I stand!

Agreed completely. Everyone in their own little echo chambers constructing their own reality and everyone outside it is phobic and evil. It’s a very, very bad thing for a cohesive and sensible society.
If you can’t get along with people who have slightly different but still mainstream views to yourself then it’s not them who has an issue. I’m not talking about embracing the neonazis , just that the idea that someone who is a leftie and someone who reads the times are at opposite ends of the political spectrum is absurd.