Emma Healy ex-Mumsnet employee address's transphobia on feminist boards.

[crispbuttyfan]

What do we think of this?

"Firstly, labelling what goes on on MN as 'discussion' completely misrepresents what is going on. Whilst, yes, I wouldn't argue that there isn't ~some~ 'civil' discussion, the vast majority descends into scaremongering and hate speech."

"There were many staff members, me included, who raised concerns about what was being said on site - but it was never taken on board. Any criticism has been dismissed as a smear attempt by 'trans activists' rather than actually thinking about what was being said"

Post edited by MNHQ

depends what you mean by trans rights GaspingShark.

man wants to wear a dress and lippy? knock yourself out
man wants to live free from fear of violence and oppression - absolutely
man wants to work in a women's refuge - er why? Nope.

AskBasil yes and when we said there's nothing to stop a man in a beard claiming to be a woman, we were told the stigma of a man claiming to be a woman was so horrendous (!!) that we could be assured it would never happen. And yet...

When we said men could enter women's sports events, we were told that was ridiculous and would never happen because no true transwoman would expose "herself" to such scrutiny as they all just want to live their lives quietly. And yet...

When we said men could be naked in women's spaces, we were told transwomen were so dysphoric about their bodies this would never happen. And yet...

Ooohhhh, a proper focused discussion almost took place there between gasping and yarn!

Gasping, do you think segregating prisoners by sex is unimportant? It sound to me as though you think segregating by gender identity may be better? Or perhaps having mixed sex/mixed gender prisons? What is your thinking about segregation?

It was intended as a comparison
In fact it is the favorite comparison of dishonest people.
We say men and you make a comparison to Black people.
Our concern is male violence. The greatest human rights crisis the world has ever known, and you compare to people.
Do you have any idea how transparent this ridiculous ploy is?

Just wanted to pop on to say Happy Birthday! to @thebewilderness

Hope you have a lovely day with lots of and or/and .
(a little border for your garden)

Thank you, Secrets. I have been taken out or in to lunch every day this week and I hope to stretch the celebration out through the coming week cuz reasons!

Yes! Birth day week (or two) is the best way to celebrate

Glad to hear you're getting spoiled

I can see reasons to house prisoners by sex. (Danger of pregnancy, danger of physically stronger men dominating women), but have no idea why you would house people by gender. If sex isn’t an issue, why not just make all prisons unisex?

Isn’t the reality that prisoners are still housed by sex, with some exceptions may be made for trans people on a case by case basis?

If this isn’t the case, I’d really like somebody to explain the rational for housing by gender, and if this is the case, why isn’t it better to explain the situation clearly with accurate language?

Oh happy birthday bewilderness

But prove me wrong. I'll start a thread if you like, I'll read it but I can't really tend it beyond the OP atm.

We're not your skivvies. If you can't be bothered to engage due to the personal reasons that happened to come up when it was obvious you couldn't win the argument then perhaps start a thread again when you find yourself with more time on your hands?

I'm very bothered, AAK. I'll get back to both threads if possible.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3226694-Reconciling-competing-rights

I'll start a thread if you like, I'll read it but I can't really tend it beyond the OP atm

Might be the funniest thing I’ve ever read.

I'll start a thread if you like, I'll read it but I can't really tend it beyond the OP atm

Cakes don't just ice themselves...

Prison instructions for trans prisoners can be downloaded here - scroll down to '17/2016 The Care and Management of Transgender Offenders'.

The prison service go by legal sex, first and foremost. They're not allowed to ask to see a GRC but they can ask for a birth certificate (the sole remaining thing a GRC is good for). If a prisoner has a female birth cert (original or obtained via a GRC) they must be housed in the female estate unless they present an exceptional risk, in which case they may be moved to a men's prison, purely because this is where the facilities are. They will still be housed separately from men and will be accommodated in line with PSI for female prisoners. TW prisoners with a GRC are treated as female in all circumstances.

There is case law directly referenced in the prison rules linked above that says that even if a tw is in prison for attempted rape, if they have a grc and hence a bc that says 'female', they must be sent to a women's prison. The bar is very low as we have seen in various cases that have made mainstream media.

Only for trans prisoners without a GRC - i.e. those who are legally male - are decisions made on a case by case basis. And the Transgender Case Board are no fools, which is why all those self ID trans sex offenders are still treated as male prisoners in the male estate.

Changing the GRA to a self-ID process would allow all of them to be treated as female. The vast majority would have to be moved to the female estate, with only the few exceptionally dangerous ones remaining in the male estate, but housed there as female prisoners.

That’s interesting and very worrying pencils :(

To go back to the question of who defines the oppression, the idea that the oppressed party gets to decide is great for most social purposes. The problem here is two-fold as far as I can see.

1. This isn't a case of an oppressed group and a group with privilege, as much as TRAs try to define it that way. This is a case of two groups of people with a case to say they are oppressed. One of those groups is half the population of the world, oppressed since fixed agriculture or longer, structurally oppressed in pretty much every place on the face of the earth for pretty much all of human written history. And then trans people.

1. Oppression being named by the oppressed group is useful for lots of reasons. However, those reasons aren't threats of, and actual, violence, outing, doxxing, threats of rape, murder and violence, and total silencing.

The TRAs don't want to name just transism (phobia is stupid), they want to define sexism and misogyny. I've NEVER met a transwoman in RL who thought that was OK.

It's not just the risk of violence to women in prisons that should be considered, it's the loss of women's dignity and privacy and the impact on mental health and overall wellbeing.

Yup. As I said above, even if a male bodied inmate never lays a finger on them, they still suffer loss of dignity.

It may not be a popular view but prisoners are a vulnerable population to start with and deserve safety. The proportion of female prisoners who have experienced prior sexual abuse is very high. They should have a right to safety, dignity etc.

It may not be a popular view but prisoners are a vulnerable population to start with and deserve safety. The proportion of female prisoners who have experienced prior sexual abuse is very high. They should have a right to safety, dignity etc.

Yes. And the other most marginalised population of women most vulnerable to self-ID? Women in closed mental health wards. Can't campaign for single sex wards if sex means nothing any more.

Always the invisible, unheard, most marginalised women who have to pay the most for the indulgences of others.

Cakes don't just ice themselves...

And many happy returns bewilderness.

Also honestly, I don't know if therefore that means I'm telling traumatised women to just grin and bear distressing stuff.

You are. HTH.