Emma Healy ex-Mumsnet employee address's transphobia on feminist boards.

[crispbuttyfan]

What do we think of this?

"Firstly, labelling what goes on on MN as 'discussion' completely misrepresents what is going on. Whilst, yes, I wouldn't argue that there isn't ~some~ 'civil' discussion, the vast majority descends into scaremongering and hate speech."

"There were many staff members, me included, who raised concerns about what was being said on site - but it was never taken on board. Any criticism has been dismissed as a smear attempt by 'trans activists' rather than actually thinking about what was being said"

Post edited by MNHQ

We don't delete all comments on the internet that offend people. Sadly.

Or actually not sadly depending on your view point.

Your arguments are straw men Susan. MNHQ does moderate genuinely offensive, transphobic, misogynistic and racist stuff. All day every day.

Yes, they do. That is my point. There are transphobic comments. They tend to get deleted. Haven't introduced any straw men AFAIAW. I think we are saying the same thing really. My truck was with people saying there is no transphobia at all and that MNHQ is unnecessarily deleting comments.

So this must come down to individual interpretations of offensive, unless you just want MNHQ to toe the line and join in the “no debate” circus

Um no, that's not what I want at all. I want the debate to be free of 'transwomen are women until they want special treatment' type lines. And I know that they will normally be deleted, but the point is they were posted in the first place.

Reading the comments, is there any possibility that someone who was trans (or otherwise) would be upset or offended by them?

Saying that transwomen are male is seen by some as offensive, and by others as the only way to explain to confused newbies that a transwoman is male whereas a transman is female.

(If any transpeople would like to campaign for swapping the names round, that would unmuddle me beautifully - 'trans woman = woman who is now known as a man' is how my brain automatically interprets it every time. Makes much more sense when compared with 'cis woman = woman still known as woman' as well.)

You're never going to be able to exert complete control over what other people write on the internet, Susan. Or what they think. Understanding this is a basic how to adult skill.

We don't delete all comments on the internet that offend people. Sadly.

No of course not. We just delete those that are racist, homophobic, misogynistic, disablist, transphobic etc. I never said anything about a right not to be offended.

Not transphobia: Biological sex needs to be protected by law because it has always been used to repress and discriminate against women.

Transphobia: I bet the youtube shooter was trans, you can clearly see an Adam's apple in the photo. Trans people are perverts.

There is a difference. My preference would be for the first type of comments.

Men do not and cannot become women. This is a biological fact, not discrimination. The biological differences have real world consequences for women. Describing these is essential in order to identify things like discrimination, sexism, rights to same sex privacy for dressing, risk of male violence etc.

Susan I don't think that you understand free speech. We have an interest here because THIS ISSUE AFFECTS WOMEN.
Gawd - I am happy to have misogynistic arseholes expose their arseholery. And if I tried to stop them speaking I'd be busy for a very long time.
TAs will be offended by anything, anyway. They are repeatedly showing us this.

You're never going to be able to exert complete control over what other people write on the internet, Susan. Or what they think. Understanding this is a basic how to adult skill

Of course not, . Like everyone here, I am merely expressing my opinion. I guess I have a strong interest in this forum remaining an open platform to discuss important women's issues because I enjoy discussing these. I worry sometimes when I see things getting derailed, but as with everyone, this is just my own viewpoint.

Multiple pages worth of very similar comments about how annoyed you are that other people aren't commenting in the way you'd prefer are a derail.

Men do not and cannot become women. This is a biological fact, not discrimination. The biological differences have real world consequences for women. Describing these is essential in order to identify things like discrimination, sexism, rights to same sex privacy for dressing, risk of male violence etc

I agree with this. Definitely.

I think the issue with the shooter was as a result of the real sex of criminals being hidden more generally.
There needs to be honest reporting about sex and crime.

Well you can’t police the individual behaviour of posters - there are thousands of them. I think some transphobic stuff gets posted here (as does racist, misogynistic etc stuff), but if it’s getting reported and modded, then obviously there isn’t a transphobia problem.

Every Internet forum has shitty posters who post shitty things (or even unshitty posters who occasionally overstep the mark) - what defines the culture of a forum is the moderation. So if you’re happy that the shitty stuff is getting moderated (which you seem to be), then it’s not a transphobic space.

If some people want to claim that no-one ever posts anything transphobic on here then that’s silly - obviously that can never be true, and if that’s who you think you are debating here then it is indeed a straw man.

langcleg thats derailing the thread was about the transphobia in the article

It's not derailing. You asked what we thought of Emma's article, which contained illegally obtained data. I explained to you that I see Emma's commentary/testimony as unreliable and cited the pro-trans satirical comment to evidence this.

I ask you again - do you think a satirical pro-TRA commenter should be doxxed, doorstepped or have their job threatened by activists reacting to Emma's breach of data laws and inability to recognise satire when she sees it? And if you don't, why not?

Please answer this question.

Kittens, I think we will have to agree to disagree. If that is how it is perceived, that is not my intention. Maybe I am just worried that this part of the site will get shut down.

I don't think anyone should be doxxed, even if I think they're a complete prick, just to be clear. Emma should not be doxxed, she should be taken to court for breach of data protection regulations.

(Some publicity wouldn't be bad either. I know if I was about to potentially hire someone with a history of stealing user data from their workplace and revealing in on Twitter that's something I'd like to know before making a hiring decision.)

If some people want to claim that no-one ever posts anything transphobic on here then that’s silly - obviously that can never be true, and if that’s who you think you are debating here then it is indeed a straw man.

But I have literally seen people say that they have never seen a transphobic post and that the content of the posts in Emma's blog are totally unproblematic. Not a straw man.

Anyway, hopefully I have clarified what I mean....

On another note, I see Emma is being dragged over the coals on twitter.

Agree there are definitely some transphobic/misogynistic comments that are unacceptable such as 'Trans people are perverts.' Or 'women are perverts' or whatever group - this is a negative generalisation with no actual evidence. Whereas saying 'x % of biological women are convicted of sex crimes and y % of men and z % of transwomen would not be misogynistic/transphobic etc

It is coming across as a bit sealion-y, Susan, to be honest. I understand being concerned about losing this space, I just don't agree with the way you're going about trying to protect it.

Hi Susan

Do you accept that women can spot male patterns of behaviour and should be able to pass comment on them?

We can no longer trust news sources. 6 women committed rape in the U.K. last year if we believe the reports. Rape is a male crime.

Don’t you agree that we have a right to want to know the truth?

Is Emma being doxxed though? Her information is in the public domain. It took me 1 minute to find out where she went to university and the sabbatical post she held for instance.

Fine, it's probably best if we don't discuss it further if that is how it's coming across.

It all seems to hinge on what we call transphobia. There is a massive problem (in my opinion) with TRAs dressing up any debate/criticism as bigotry and transphobia.

I'm also happy to accept transitioned transwomen into the female fold. I will defend transpeople's rights to support and being free from discrimination.
But I do think there is a debate which needs to be had surrounding the growth of radical TRAs.according to some that makes me a TERF.

Personally, I dislike misgendering and think calling a transwoman a 'he' is just being goady.
In my opinion some posts cross my line, but I will defend their right to express those views.

Emma isn't being doxxed, and if anyone decided to do so I'd be just as harsh with them as I'm being with her.

What kind of Oyster card do you need to ride the derail?