Emma Healy ex-Mumsnet employee address's transphobia on feminist boards.

[crispbuttyfan]

What do we think of this?

"Firstly, labelling what goes on on MN as 'discussion' completely misrepresents what is going on. Whilst, yes, I wouldn't argue that there isn't ~some~ 'civil' discussion, the vast majority descends into scaremongering and hate speech."

"There were many staff members, me included, who raised concerns about what was being said on site - but it was never taken on board. Any criticism has been dismissed as a smear attempt by 'trans activists' rather than actually thinking about what was being said"

Post edited by MNHQ

crisp the very good question from lang has been asked again...

langcleg thats derailing the thread was about the transphobia in the article, your question amongst others is being chewed over on the main thread by Barrack...

Reality that wouldn't wash with other forms of discrimination, would it? Some black people/women/disabled people don't find it offensive, so it's not.

It would be interesting to see if anyone has anything in mind that they would find transphobic, if those comments are apparently unproblematic.

I do hope she gets into serious trouble for the data breach. Even if people do make transphobic comments online, they are relying on the anonymity of the site and they do not deserve to be exposed and be subjected to abuse etc. I presume MN would be vicariously liable for any employees so people could potentially sue MN.

Mumsnet doesn’t have a transphobia problem, at all.

It does, however, have a lot of intelligent posters that don’t take being what to think, say, believe, or to shut up, lying down.

Are you saying that the trans posters happily discussing things here are transphobic?

Non-transsexuals get to tell Transsexuals that their ID is outdated or offensive all the time. TRAs are overrun with transphobics. TGs should clean house first

Amen. There is only one side of this debate calling me abusive names and telling me to die in a fire.

Susan Emma might have only shared screenshots with IP addresses, but she had access to our personal data (potentially real names eg via email addresses and name change histories and PMs...), it's not about just IP addresses, she could have taken all sorts of data.

That's true. I hope MN are on to lawyers and consider applying for an injunction to stop her from revealing any further info and to deliver up all devices she has that may have information stored on them. They could get into such shit if they don't take this seriously.

Worryingly, I have heard (on MNTrolls) that they have an extremely lax policy re safeguarding and other things. I wonder if this contributed to the ease with which Emma was allowed to steal data.

Despite the fact trans people would have the best perspective on this?

You don't speak for all trans people. Also, you don't speak for biological women. Just because you don't like what we say doesn't mean it isn't true. Or is it a case of stamp your feet and wail transphobia because you're not getting your own way?!?

Are you saying that the trans posters happily discussing things here are transphobic?

We are talking about certain comments, not general discussion of issues.

Truscum

I wonder if this contributed to the ease with which Emma was allowed to steal data.

I’m inclined to think it was the fact that Emma is dishonest and untrustworthy that contributed to her stealing data.

But Susan, who gets to decide who is right about whether it’s transphobic? You? TRAs on twitter? MNHQ? Who?

You can’t know which subset of the trans community is in the majority on this, and you can’t assume that the noisiest group is the biggest.

Either way, “no debate” and the assault on free speech is unacceptable - isn’t it?

My point is that you as non-trans do not get to dictate what is and what is not transphobic because you do not experience it.

Actually by Stonewall's definitions I would be trans.

Fine, you as non-women do not get to decide what is misogynistic, because you haven't experienced it.

Where does that get us?

But Susan, who gets to decide who is right about whether it’s transphobic? You? TRAs on twitter? MNHQ? Who?

Surely what I am saying is fairly uncontroversial? Reading the comments, is there any possibility that someone who was trans (or otherwise) would be upset or offended by them? Not whether X or Y or Z person says they are transphobic or not.

Same as if someone made racist comments, the question is is there any possibility that a POC (or not) would be upset or offended by them?

It seems that some people are saying that transphobia does not exist full stop or that it's okay because the TRAs are just as bad. I don't see why transphobia should not be treated in the same way as other types of discrimination. I have not heard a good reason why not so far.

That invisibility cloak that trans regulars on here have never fails!

Fine, you as non-women do not get to decide what is misogynistic, because you haven't experienced it

Is that directed to male TRAs? I presume it's not directed at me because I can assure you that I am very much female.

But yes, it doesn't 'get' us anywhere, it just means that hopefully debate will be kept civil and to the point so that people stop saying that MN is transphobic and so that the real concerns about the GRA and EA can be aired with a view to finding a solution that is acceptable to all involved.

Reading the comments, is there any possibility that someone who was trans (or otherwise) would be upset or offended by them?

If we shut down the internet when someone wrote something someone somewhere got upset or offended by, there would be no more internet. There is no right not to be offended.

Although shutting down internet chat might not be the worst idea for society tbh.

Your arguments are straw men Susan. MNHQ does moderate genuinely offensive, transphobic, misogynistic and racist stuff. All day every day.

So this must come down to individual interpretations of offensive, unless you just want MNHQ to toe the line and join in the “no debate” circus.

Actually by Stonewall's definitions I would be trans.

Fine, but you don't get to dictate either. If someone complains of harassment, you don't simply ask the person who is accused of harassment whether they are being discriminatory. They will inevitably say no. You examine what was said and done and ask whether it is conceivable that someone would reasonably be upset or offended by it. That's how it works for everything else.

I dont find mumsnet to be at all transphobic. Any dodgy posts get deleted quickly. Opinions about seld id and males in female places are not hate. It must be a stressful life if differing opinions are perceived as hate and makes discussion very hard. What this intern did is an outrageous abuse of trust and should be a police matter.

If we shut down the internet when someone wrote something someone somewhere got upset or offended by, there would be no more internet. There is no right not to be offended.

We don't shut down the internet, the comments are deleted. There is no right not to be offended but there is a right not to be discriminated against. A legal right.

IW was offended by the word "guys" being used in the colloquial way that it's used to apply to mixed sex groups all the time. "Someone was offended" is not the same thing as "a reasonable person would take offense".

Critical thinking and not sharing others ideologies are not things you can ask people not to do in a democracy because it offends you or you interpret it as phobic.

Susan Women here are not going to stop saying that men cannot become women.
People like Crisp are not going to like that, but too bad because this is something that DIRECTLY AFFECTS WOMEN. It does not just affect transpeople.