Boys in Guides is wrong - letter in Sunday Times today

[CapnHaddock]

Fabulous! Thanks to Agnes and DrNic: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/allowing-boys-to-be-guides-is-wrong-v0dngnvjp?shareToken=a17a43f649f1ebc0c60077f356240fd0

Exactly. 'Single gender' doesn't add up.

How do you interpret what is in the guide to mean trans boys will be kicked out? It says nothing of the kind.

What should I do if a young member tells me they do not identify as a girl?
Be aware that the young member may not have told many people or anyone at all, and that it is a sign that they trust you as a Leader. Reassure them that their gender identity is not a problem and that guiding will continue to support them throughout this time of exploration and, potentially, of change. Make sure they know that they can tell you if anyone is not supportive. The young member may prefer a different pronoun such as ‘he’ or ‘they’; this can be respected if and when the young member wishes while they remain part of the organisation. This conversation should be treated in confidence and you should:^
# offer reassurance
# tell the young member that their confidentiality will be respected
# listen and be supportive
# ask the young member what their preferred pronoun might be and then use it
# ask the young member how they would like to be supported or if there is any information they want or need
# let them know that they can come and talk to you again, or recommend someone else whom they can speak to^
# at the right time, you may wish to begin to work with the young member to find another organisation that may better support their needs, for example an organisation open to all genders

We understand that if a young member is transitioning from female to male that they will be experiencing a great amount of change and uncertainty. Flexibility and the Leaders’ discretion in conversation with the parents must be used to determine how long the child stays within the unit

www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/running-your-unit/including-all/lgbt-members/talking-about-gender-and-gender-identity/

It's not explicit, Lass, but it is implicit. Why don't we stick with sex, and ensure we're inclusive of those of either sex who express themselves unconventionally? For a single sex organisation, that means girls, as traditionally defined.

I signed this as a parent (well step parent) of a guide and my name appeared on the list. had my name been more unusual though, I may not have signed, or done it with initials, as transactivists are crazy stalking violent men, on the whole. I think many will have not signed for the same reason..their behavior is just unstable.

I doubt many parents of guides, or leaders would be impressed with adding boys to the mix, stealth.

I think it's implied from this bit...
"at the right time, you may wish to begin to work with the young member to find another organisation that may better support their needs, for example an organisation open to all genders"
...as well as...
"...while they remain part of the organisation"

"May" is not prescriptive and "at the right time" is presumably at the right time for the child.

I think it is huge leap to transform that carefully worded statement to mean trans boys will be compulsorily expelled.

The letter is really good - succinct and sets out the issues clearly. Well done DrW and Agnes - and all the signatories.

No one has said that trans boys will be 'compulsorily expelled' except for you Lass.

The letter which DrW wrote very carefully and which I signed says 'they will be expected to leave' and the guidance (which I posted at 10.06am) says - no less than three times - that girls who identify as boys 'may wish' to find an alternative organisation that 'may better support their needs'. I take from that they will be encouraged to leave, given that the document also explicitly states that GGUK is for YP who identify as girls ergo it is not for girls who identify as boys.

Flexibility and the Leaders’ discretion in conversation with the parents must be used to determine how long the child stays within the unit

I take this to mean they are expected to leave and that it's just a matter of timing. Otherwise why even mention it? Why not state categorically that they are welcome to stay?

It is absolutely a matter of implication that if boys identidying as girls are welcome then girls identifying as boys will not be welcome seeing as they are a "single gender" organisation rather than a single sex organisation.

flowersonthepiano put it well.

www.girlguiding.org.uk/globalassets/docs-and-resources/programme-and-activities/letstalkaboutgender_leaders.pdf

This bit.

Membership of Girlguiding

"Membership of Girlguiding is decided based on gender identity. This is understood in terms of the way a person self-identifies their gender identity – a person’s inner sense of self. If a young person identifies as female then they are able to join any of our youth sections appropriate to their age."

So how can anyone who identifies as male be in Girlguiding?

That goes against the only membership criterion that they have.

GG are a "single gender" org, for anyone who "identifies" as a girl.

Therefore, it is not the place for female sex children who ID as agender, bigender, boys, or any of the other host of genders that are not "girl".

I've just read that GG went to court a few years back, when it was single sex, to stop a boy joining. Now it is single gender, they will need to police that or they will end up "mixed" and they do not want to do that.

The statement is clear that there is an expctation that girls who are considering an ID other than "girl" will be leaving. The only question is when.

This is such an important issue; both the continued support of trans-boys and the safeguarding of girls in residential trips. Well done to all involved!!!

No one has said that trans boys will be 'compulsorily expelled' except for you Lass

Are you serious?

Here is a selection of posts. These are from the first 2 pages. I gave up after that.

Because the current guidelines say female young people with a trans identity should be encouraged to leave Guides.

Lately there are far more girls identifying as Transgender as they explore their identities in a highly gendered society. It is awful to see Guides trying to exclude them.

Now they are changing the rules to include boys who identify as girls, while excluding girls who identify as boys or who are bi.

The actual guidelines does not say any of these.

Loads of girls and women don't have an "internal gender ID" - we found out about women with a long thread on here ages ago.

I wonder if what the TRAs (and stonewall) claim - that the vast majority of people have a strongly held internal sense of gender - is not generally true. Who came up with this idea? Trans people presumably, who by definition do. Most women just feel like "people". TRAs say this is becasue we are too stupid to understand our own brains. I wonder though, if it is as common as they think - or maybe it is more common among men than women - certainly, if they sit down all the rainbows, brownies and guides and say "gender is how you feel inside, here is a list of genders, which feels like you?" I suspect they would lose quite a chunk of their membership.

By including several lines of instructions on the exit process for girls identifying as boys you are prescribing how a policy which excludes them will be enacted.

The policy does say it's for everyone identifying a a girl as s single gender organisation. This is prescriptive.

Saying at the right time means there is a timetable. If they were welcome as girls there would be no reason to mention time at all.

Yes it's gentle, but it still prescribing the intentions.

If people here are shortening that to booted out then that is not an uncomnon way to use language.

The effect of the gentle words are identical, expected to leave, as the belief behind the policy and the gender reassignment characteristic is that you are physically male bodied the moment you say you are.

Lass wouldn't it be better if the guidelines explicitly stated that trans-boys could stay?

None of those posts say anything about compulsoray expulsion, lass.

The comments under the article are really heated...

A person came on here the other day promoting to their own blog "how to radicalise hatred of trans people in 10 easy steps" but got deleted, and they are commenting under the article. I think they're connected to Mermaids.

But mostly the comments are swung to onside which is good.

Guiding 's own policy statement from their website.
Single sex. Which they go on to muddle up with single gender and "feeling like a girl".
It's a mess, and children are the ones who will suffer and the organisation I love, which has done so much good, will be damaged and changed out of recognition.

Thanks all for your support

The guidance on trans issues certainly implies that children who do not identify as girls are expected to leave; it's also clearly stated in the new membership criteria that only people who identify as girls and women are eligible for membership.

I have written to Girlguiding to ask for clarification on this. Is the starting point that gender non conforming girls are welcome to stay on in their units for as long as they want, or until the natural end of that section?

Or is the starting point that we expect to them leave and leaders should help GNC girls navigate this?

These are two very different positions.

As ever, Girlguiding has not responded. More silence.

If Girlguiding will not engage with its leaders, or answer reasonable questions from its own members who have to apply the policy, then we have no choice but to make this public.

I'm now aware that people who write to Girlguiding more than once about this will get a template email noting that no further responses will be given if you contact them again, and concluding with a little dig about how GG accept that not everyone is as inclusive as them.

"The effect of the gentle words are identical, expected to leave, as the belief behind the policy and the gender reassignment characteristic is that you are physically male bodied the moment you say you are."

This is interesting - yes.

They have said there are no safeguarding concerns with mixed accomodation as trans girls and trans women are female.

Therefore, they believe that a child who says they may be a boy inside, physically becomes a boy - obviously they need to leave - that is a clear safeguarding issue.
Similarly, does a child who says they are agender become sexless immediately? No safeguarding issue there.

(Currently the older age groups is 14 to 25 so according to the rules a 14 year old girl could be bunked in with a 25 year old trans woman, GG say there is NO safeguarding issue as the trans woman is female. How does this work if you have 16yo in together and they have sex? Do they literally believe there is no risk of pregnancy as the TG is female???)

Senior section is reducing to 18 but I don't think this makes much of a difference really.

It would be interesting to ask the guides what safeguarding policies they have around girls who ID as boys, given that they are literally male.

@KittTheCar

Currently the older age groups is 14 to 25 so according to the rules a 14 year old girl could be bunked in with a 25 year old trans woman

Just to be clear, GG has a strict rule that Rangers / senior section members over the age of 18 are not allowed to share tents with under 18s. Which brings its own problems when you have a just turned 18yo who can't share with her 17.5yo friend but the rules are strictly applied