Ulster Rugby trial -continued

[ZibbidooZibbidooZibbidoo]

New thread.

Reading it again I find it weaselly and unpleasant.

That's because, while the knee-jerk reaction to Ulster Rugby's decision is to heap praise, it raises a couple of key points

Knee jerk reaction? Really?

When it came to Jackson and Olding, while a ruling of not guilty shouldn't equate to innocence given the burden of proof, a ruling of not guilty shouldn't equate to guilty either. Only it has done, and that ought to terrify when an accusation takes precedence over legal verdicts

They were not sacked because their employer thought they were guilty of rape despite the verdict. They were sacked because of the other appalling behaviour.

Conflating what happened to them with McCarthyism is hyperbolic.

Sorry I'm getting the strong impression this bloke secretly feels sorry for them but unlike Ched Evans' apologists hasn't got the guts to say so.

I don't agree with the premise and construct of that article either. It's comparisons to McCarthyism have no merit. Any employer who had been affected so negatively by the behaviour of employees should absolutely consider termination of their contract if a) it violates their code of conduct (the article makes the fair point it is unclear what that code actually is and has called out double standards on previous behaviour) and b) if the behaviour is likely to negatively impact their brand.

The point around social media has been skewed. In this case social media has called such attention to the conduct that it cannot be swept under the carpet. This is an excellent use of social media forcing businesses to make good decisions from a societal point of view rather than purely business. It has also been an excellent opportunity for women's voices to be heard in a male dominated environment!

I agree with Lass here. Ewan sounds like he believes their behaviour was just fine, boisterous high spirits if you will. Same as the not rapist Ched Evans' apologists do.

They have been found not guilty, no real surprises there when it comes to rape, but their behaviour was despicable, Olding admitted as much. If you are an elite of any field, whether that be rugby, law, baking, whatever, if you behave despicably, you forfeit your right to remain part of your tribe's elite.

This isn't McCarthyism, it's a sporting body disciplining people who have signed up for that discipline. They haven't been banned for life, no doubt someone will employ their sorry arses, but Ulster have drawn a line under their employment with them in the same way as any company would draw a line under an employee bringing their company into disrepute.

I think a lot of people feel sorry for them; in a way I do myself (while absolutely condemning what they said and what they did). I believe they got pissed and did what they did pretty much every night; this particular night they picked a girl who was young and inexperienced and (quite rightly) not ok with they way they behaved. I feel sad for them that the lives they led made them think that the way they were behaving was ok.

But it's the same feeling of pity society used to have for those caught driving over the limit (when everyone did it but only a few got caught) or for those who get clamped (when half the world parks illegally) or gets points for speeding (when everyone does 70 in a 60 zone)

Even if we accept their assertions that they believed she consented, they still hurt her badly, talked about women in an appalling way, and demonstrated a level of misogyny that makes them unsuitable as a role model for children. Failing to discipline them for their behaviour would leave the IRFU in particular (whatever about UR) on a very stick wicket.

Sacking them may be treating the "symptom" not the cause - but that's a start isn't it? A start and a warning that this type of behaviour is not ok.

I don’t feel any sympathy for them.

I'm the same @NotTakenUsername I don't feel any sympathy for them. Agree that yes sacking them perhaps doesn't get to the root of the problem but something had to happen.

It's a societal issue in my opinion and not just something rugby lads get involved in. I think a lot of girls and boys today think certain behaviour is acceptable / normal and for the girls feel like they can't say anything.

As mentioned on other posts attitudes towards porn and what people are watching has to to have influence on what people do then when they go out and drink or whatever.

It's all just a bit of fun and banter and sure aren't we legends.

I don't feel sorry for them either. They're entitled arseholes however you look at it.

I'm getting the strong impression this bloke secretly feels sorry for them but unlike Ched Evans' apologists hasn't got the guts to say so.

I agree with this. It's all dressed up in oh so reasonable language and concerns about the 'braying mob' of social media, but ultimately seems to think they should have had a rap on the knuckles and that's it.

However, he does make a good point about Bill Clinton. In the age of 'me too' it looks like he got off very lightly.

Sorry, I worded that badly. I don't feel any sympathy for them at all because of what they did. I feel sorry that they ended up where they are, with the attitudes that they have, and their absolute belief that this way of thinking and acting is ok.

I feel sorry for all young men who grow up in an arena where it appears to be generally accepted that this is ok. I wonder did anyone, ever, say "hang on a sec", leave a WhatsApp group, walk away from a party. Or were they continuously, their whole lives, supported and encouraged to think that this is normal.

On a personal level my belief is that their actions are inexcusable; my personal sympathy lies 100% with the girl in this case (and the many girls who have been left feeling at best shit about themselves, and at worst physically damaged by these men and many others who have a warped sense of what is ok. I'm glad they were sacked; it may be treating a symptom only, but it's a symptom that needs treating.

I too am disgusted by the acceptance that because Bill Clinton happened to be president of the USA at the time "peace" broke out that everything else he did appears to have been forgiven

However, he does make a good point about Bill Clinton. In the age of 'me too' it looks like he got off very lightly

Oh goodness yes. I do feel sorry for Monica Lewinsky. And if I'm being honest if I were an American voter I would, to paraphrase Mhairi Black on voting for Brexit, have been voting for Hillary Clinton whilst holding my nose. Hillary's "stand by your man" take on it was depressing.

Yes, one should treat with suspicion anyone who has more to say about hating mobs on social media than hating mobs who have sex with a woman until her vagina is torn and congratulate each other when she leaves the premises in tears the next day. Especially when they don't understand that they haven't been sacked for being rapists. Makes it sound like that person views some baying mobs as more equal than others.

LassWi
I couldn't have voted for Hilary Clinton because of her utterings re not being some Tammy Wynette standing by her man and then doing exactly that

And for other reasons too

I'm not usually an Indo reader, but it's nice to see some righteous anger being directed at the club and culture of the supporters here

Just seen this it seems under current law not screaming can equal to giving consent according to barrister.
You don't need to obtain enthusiastic active consent as so many consent classes teach you. Which will make these new classes UR are making their players take useless
m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/rugby-players-to-receive-sexual-relationship-classes-following-jackson-and-olding-rape-trial-36834001.html

This is so depressing

And yet any person who has trained in martial arts will tell you that when you are in pain the first thing that goes is your ability to speak and that is why we slap the mat or our thigh to signal stop.

Good point about tapping out thebewilderness

No other crime would ever accept consent of said crime via not screaming or not saying no.

If you hit someone, you're assaulting them. If they froze and didn't scream, they're consenting to a beating?

Someone breaks into your house, you don't scream. In fact, you let them take whatever they want. Did you just consent to being burgled?

Why is rape any different? Why is it always, she's lying, she probably regretted sex, hell hath no fury like a woman scorned bullshit.

Even when young girls are raped, the excuses are about girls looking older, being prick teases, leading on the poor menz etc

Bit like polanski. Saying all young girls want it

Also, what about their messages when they said 'how old? What school?' Answered with 'hopefully and don't know'

Assume they meant hopefully not under 16?

Rape is a difficult crime to prove beyond reasonable doubt, often due to the lack of witnesses and the he said/she said element.

We should probably take comfort in the outcome of the Ulster Rugby Trial, because the ultimate outcome was that the players involved lost their jobs and at present have no clubs rushing to sign them up.

The total irony is that this wasn't because the jury found them guilty beyond reasonable doubt, but because of things they wrote themselves on Whats App, which were published, as a result of the case being tried in court. I bet the players involved and their families are kicking themselves at what they have lost through sheer arrogance and stupidity.

Many men posting on social media are outraged, but like rape complainants cannot do much about it. Let them suck it up, as many women have done for years.

Hopefully others will learn lessons through this sorry tale and professional sportsmen of the future will be better educated by their employers.

I bet the players involved and their families are kicking themselves at what they have lost through sheer arrogance and stupidity.

SO, possibly. PJ? From what we’ve seen from him so far I suspect he and his family are still seething and compiling a list of who they can sueblame for the whole thing. Other than the victim of course.

List of people to blame for PJ’s behaviour:
1)PJ
2)... ... ...

Yup. Looks right to me.

I think most men don't really understand why sexual assault is a bad thing. They've been told it's bad but they have no real idea why. The men who post angrily in social media, who think the 'lads' have been 'found innocent' and shouldn't suffer any consequences, don't have the faintest idea what the problem actually is.

And it's reflected in the assumptions of defence lawyers: after all, this woman has a sexual history, what's the problem with another penis or two? It's actually quite bizarre. At least the response to the trial has highlighted the need for change, but I'm not very sure that most men actually understand why change is important because they simply can't imagine why sexual assault is such an awful thing. Or am I too pessimistic?

I totally agree with that cards. I also have a massive issue with the “imagine it was your daughter/sister/mother” line that is always directed at men to get them to feel the impact. No, imagine it was YOU! Imagine that penis being forced on YOU so hard it lacerated the inside of YOUR rectum. Imagine two huge men who vastly outweigh YOU and could break YOUR limbs with ease have decided to have sex with YOU and all the while YOU think someone is filming it. Imagine then having to tell people that two famous men raped YOU and watch people’s faces as you see the disbelief (disbelief, not shock) spread across their face. And then go online and read the comments from absolute strangers telling you you’re lying for attention because YOU did something you regret. Not your sister or daughter or mother. YOU.

Serious sex crimes review announced today.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-43880579

Thanks Dibbosteme. That sounds hopeful.

Zibbidoo YOU are spot on.

Cards I agree that men don't really get it. An old friend of mine who is a gay man and lives life on the "meat rack" says he doesn't understand women and why they make everything so emotional about sex (he had a female fiance for 10 years, no sex, both "religious"). He says that men think totally differently about sex. He often has "bad sex" and injury - guys who he hadn't expected joining in etc. You just suck it up and move on - it happens - so why can't the girl in this case? She is just being overly emotional (like most women) according to his experience.

Zibbidoo That's almost exactly what I said to my (male) partner. He finally started to get it, I think.

Dibbosteme Really glad to hear that; thanks for the link!

kikashi That's really interesting. I've been thinking of it as a straight man thing, but maybe it's broader than that. Scary.