Where are all the trans men? An Answer.

[1955stephen]

Someone asked: I have also wondered where the trans men are in all this!

So decided to do a little of record ethnographic research and talked to a few of my 'trans men' mates about this, over my orange and soda, and their beer or two. I asked whether they would consider to contributing to an online debate., like the one on Mumsnet.
All said they really limit their online stuff to what is absolutely necessary for family and friend's purposes i.e. a bit of facebook and that's that. Though many said they used Whatsapp to talk with family quite a lot.
It seems some go onto computers when at work, but most don't even do that - they are very hands on people; a doctor, a ceo, a dentist, a teacher, a manager of a day centre, a physio, a occupational therapist, a firemen, a stable owner, a policeman.
They only go online when real life obliges them to do so - such as talking to their mum.
They said they go on to buy absolutely essential items; a sprogget needed to fix a toilet flush, bracket to fix the kid's bunk beds, or when told to change the milk order cos their partner was going to bed.
Two said they went online to get a new book on their kindle, or to find a film for their partner, their kids, their mother etc.
Most said they don't want the hassle of participating in online talking. As another put it: "by the time the evening has arrived, I have run out of words. I simply cannot carry on talking, and typing means saying the words in my head". (I understand that feeling) .
Another said "going on the computer is just too much when all I want to do is stop, eat, wash and go to sleep."
Another said "ask me to come round, and choose between 1. digging your garden, 2. print and pack 2000 newsletters, or 3. type words, I'll chose them in exactly that order: 1, 2 then 3".
And another said; "as a journalist I am online a lot - watching, but I limit my participation to when I have something worthwhile and different to say. That's not often".
It seems, therefore, from my small selection of consulted trans men, that most trans men limit computer use to work. And we just don't want to do it after that.
I understand because that is how I feel, and have no urge to change that.
There will be some who participate online (as I do to a limited extent), but if people don't want to, they don't have to - and they are probably mentally healthier for not doing so.
Has anyone counted up men's and women's use of talking chambers on the internet? I wonder what hormones have to do with it..

But, you know, as a ranger guide I appreciated the gentleness of the the venture scout, who introduced me to the idea of pleasant sex. But I do wish we had had access a nice warm mattress, rather than a rather painful bed of heather.

Thats really inappropriate on here as people are worried about their young daughters in the guides...and i would have been very concerned about my young son in the same situation

When a woman is a recovering anorexic or self harmer she will go to any lengths to ensure her children do not follow in her footsteps.
She tries to analyse how her thinking became disordered so that her children can avoid the same mistake.
She models healthy thinking and attitudes and denounces pro ana sites and propoganda.
She understands that anorexia is a dangerous and unhealthy mental and physical response to a problem caused by society.

She doesn't produce school training programmes demanding we celebrate and affirm childrens eating disorders and she doesn't lobby for anorexia to be seen as a valid and healthy variation of the human condition and she doesn't demand that the world collude in calling anorexics fat and she doesn't argue that liposuction is a valid treatment that alleviates body dysphoria.

Biological sex is immutable.
Personal expression is unlimited within ones biological sex.
A belief in inner gender is as unfounded as the belief of an anorexic that she is fat. Both may have a societal cause and a biological susceptibility to dysphoria.

But both beliefs are demonstrably wrong.
It doesn't matter WHY a person holds a false belief, it matters that they are helped to accept reality and that we do everything possible to prevent others from falling into a similar trap.

I am really pleased that you have joined the debate.
A key issue is that of our sexed-bodies. There seems to be widespread acceptance/desire in our society for same-sex provision when undressing is involved. Here, gender identity is not an issue but sexed-bodies are. There are many people with female sexed bodies who want to be able to undress in a space that prohibits male-bodied people from entering. I expect there is little appetite in society to change this.
I fully understand that the dignity, respect and safety this affords female-bodied people is denied to male-bodied trans people if/when they are required to use provision for male-bodied people. It is unacceptable to require/expect trans people to use facilities that compromise their dignity and safety. We need to campaign for third spaces where this is an issue.
I don’t really buy in to arguments that this is difficult to legislate for/ police/enforce.

Thank you for replying, Stephen. Sorry to distract you from work - I should be doing that myself!

Yes - as is their right under the law.

So you don't see a safeguarding issue that may result in (consensual or non-consensual) sexual activity between minors that could lead to pregnancy? I'm surprised. These are teenagers. It would seem blindingly obvious to me.

I also respect the right of parents of young teens to feel entitled to contribute to the decision, if they have kids who go to these events. And I respect the right of older teens who will go, to contribute to the decision.

But the Guides new guidance says that parents cannot be informed of this. The right to anonymity of the trans child has been deemed to override the right to informed consent of every other child's parent.

Did swim England say Penis's should swing free, Where - I would like to see the original before responding to this, as I have not heard of this issue before.

Yes, it did. What did you think the #ManFriday campaign was drawing attention to? As a trans man, I would have thought this would have piqued your interest. The Swim England guidance said that women uncomfortable with "ladypenis" (ie intact trans males/women) in their changing rooms should be educated by staff to put up with it, while "man breasts" (ie trans females/men sans mastectomy) should be covered up modestly in men's changing rooms lest men feel uncomfortable.

This was the whole point of #ManFriday. I can't show the guidance because that action by feminists exposed the blatant sexism so skilfully that Swim England took the guidance down.

Again, I am surprised that the substantive issue behind this well publicised campaign - and one that would affect trans-identified females like you negatively - passed you by.

Oh good grief there are some nuts on the board today.

We have thought long and hard about changes to the law that erase your rights to same-sex spaces and your right to define your existence with the word 'woman'

Well that wins today's paternalistic superiority/thick as a plank award. I don't care how long you think you thought about my rights before you decided what I can and can't have, if you seriously can't hear yourself and what's wrong with that then I'm embarrassed for you.

as a ranger guide I appreciated the gentleness of the the venture scout, who introduced me to the idea of pleasant sex

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand any attempt at actually taking you seriously ends here. The talking in the style of an elderly gentleman from a 1950s novel is equally grating.

One of the many tweets on Saturday was a list of statements from a trans activist.

No. 1 was the ubiquitious “Transwomen are women!”
No. 2 was “Transmen and non-binary people exist”

That’s the attitude people question when they ask where are the transmen: why are transwomen treated with so much more importance?

Missed that knee

But yes...spot on

Really annoyed about the whole...i had a lovely sexual experience in scouts thing

When thats the whole fucking point of people being worried about unsupervised mixed sex camps...

Sure, you can have ‘special events’ but they must be exactly that; the exceptions.

Like Michfest? The female/lesbian only festival held annually for over 40 years until transactivists violently targeted it and got it shut down.

Despite the fact that transsexuals had previously been welcome. That wasn't enough. It had to go.

Or the online bra fitting service for adolescent girls? The use of the word girl was deemed discriminatory and it was piled on by male transactivists. Using, of course, transmen, as the reason.

Or the Vancouver women's library. Violently targeted by transactivists, demanding they burn a helpfully provided list of feminist books, despite the fact that they stock books by transwomen.

Or Salford working women's resource which was violently targeted because they hosted Julie Bindel talking about coming out as a lesbian in the 1970s.

Or Millwall football club, who were forced to pull out from hosting a feminist meeting. Despite the fact that men were invited too, and transwomen.

You are being incredibly naive if you think women are allowed to gather together even in 'exceptional circumstances'.

Anything with the word woman it is being targeted. This is being allowed because of the laws that you have helped implement.

Let's wind this back a bit, because I'm not sure you understand what the gender crit/radfem/"TERFs" argument is.

"When I went to see the Vagina Monologues, how brilliant it was that the other men in the audience were getting a tiny sense of what it might be like to live with a vagina.
Let’s say I was asked to take part, would it be reasonable for women to campaign for the exclusion of my voice. Surely, I have as much to say as anyone else who has lived with a vagina and importantly, it would give my community their voice and their sense of belonging."

We think biology is important in that it affects our experiences in the world, so why on earth would we want to stop you talking about your experiences of life with a vagina in the Vagina Monologues?

A transwoman insisting on having a place in the Vagina Monologues to talk about their "lady penis" would obviously not make sense. Nor would transactivists trying to shut down the Vagina Monologues for being "cis" or "transmisogynistic".

It's not our side who tries to shut down discussions of female biology.

"I absolutely believe in ‘women only lists’ to increase women’s participation in government. But you can’t have that, and another assumptive space for men, and then not be willing to create the equivalent for those who don’t fit into of the modernist definitions of what a woman or a man is. "

I don't think I've ever seen a radfem insist that there can't be that space? All we've asked is that those with male genitalia/experience/socialisation let women have their own space in order to combat the socialisation/inequality.

"Just as women-only lists cannot work if women are then only selected to stand in marginal constituencies, similarly trans men and women must not be denigrated to the position of being tokens"

Again, this isn't the radfem argument?

I would hope you aren't deliberately misrepresenting our position and that this is a simple misunderstanding

The vagina monologues, by the way were deemed exclusionary, because not all women have vaginas. In other words, men identifying as women have penises, not vaginas.

But, OP transmen are used relentlessly to blur the biological distinction between transwomen and women.

Any reference to the female biology is met with but men (transmen) have that biology, too. So it's nothing to do with being a woman.

Anything to do with being a woman is either exclusionary to transwomen (to whom it doesn't even apply) or not specific to women, as transmen have it too.

Whichever way they turn, women are either excluding someone who identifies as a woman, or mistakenly being sex specific to a someone who identifies as a man.

We literally can't win.

Fantastic. This is so hugely important. I would love to see you shouting really loudly about this one in the public sphere. Your voice has weight on this matter and it's a crucial point. It's what women want in much more than just toilets. If TRA's were calling for that, you'd find so many more women adding their voice in support of you having your own safe spaces, political representation and shortlists which give you a voice or power in other capacities.

Yup. I think most radfems primary concerns are female only spaces, along with safeguarding of children. OS we are halfway there already it seems both sides 'agree'. I do agree that if this answer is genuine, then a voice from inside the trans community, one as respected as Stephen...would be very very much appreciated. Seems we want the same things.

Someone on MN suggested trans women should have to use the men’s loos, effectively they are suggesting that trans women should daily enter a cage fight with tigers.

It really pisses me off that it is accepted as completely normal that men's loos are dangerous places for non-masculine people. How is this ok?

The priority here should surely be for men to sort the violence out rather than for everyone at risk to run off to the female toilets. Like to wear make up - female toilets? Like to wear dresses -female toilets? Wrong football shirt - female toilets? Not the answer.

Sort out the male violence and women wouldn't have such a problem sharing with men anyway.

Yet for 70 years, women and trans women have been using the same loos, often together, sometimes with knowledge, often without.

We know. Most of us have been sharing toilets for years with transwomen without much concern. However, the issue is that these transwomen were what I referred to earlier as old-skool transexuals: natal males with gender dysphoria who have been through extensive gatekeeping and have medically (and often surgically) transitioned for the sake of their mental health. It has always seemed to me like a compassionate courtesy to let such transwomen use the women's toilet.

But that's not what we're dealing with nowadays. The meaning of trans has altered beyond recognition. Now we have much greater numbers of transwomen who have no gender dysphoria, who want to keep their penis in a fully-functioning state, and who demand access to women's changing rooms, hospital wards, DV refuges, and prisons, as well as toilets.

Now, we have natal males who declare they are nonbinary transwomen and present as men on some days of the week and as women on other days; again, with no intention of medical or surgical transition, they want access to women's facilities on the days they present as women.

Now, we have natal males who say they identify as women but continue to present very clearly as men (complete with beard, etc.), have no intention of transitioning socially, never mind medically or surgically, and yet demand access to women's facilities on the basis of their claimed gender identity.

These are the groups of transwomen many of us do not want to share our toilets or any other women's facilities. These groups of transwomen are very different to the gender dysphoric transwomen I described in the first paragraph, and each successive group is increasingly difficult to distinguish, for all intents and purposes, from predatory men.

There lies the crux of our concern: being expected to accommodate the entire trans umbrella in our women's facilities, where any concern we raise about increased exposure to risk is dismissed as ignorance and/or transphobia. No. It's not. And we won't just shut up and budge up.

Trans women are not the people to fear when going to the loos. I can honestly assure you, that trans women are as frightened, if not more, of the man in the loos who attacks women.

We have often said here on MN that the old-skool transwomen, with whom we have been sharing toilets for years, have almost as much to lose as we do from the broadening of the trans umbrella. Several transwomen who post here have agreed.

Stephen: can you see the focus of our concerns now? And why so many of us get angry when we're told our fears are groundless?

Stephen doesn't care. He knows all this - he's been at it for decades.

I'm only saying 'he' so that I don't get deleted. This is just a small part of what he's done. Stephen knows exactly what we will say before we say it.

There is almost a decade's worth of articulate argument on mumsnet if Stephen were truly interested. I'm sure S has familiarised hself with the arguments already.

Once you've taken the position that a little lie is acceptable and a few small exceptions to the rule won't hurt, you're stuck travelling a path that needs bigger and bigger lies to sustain the first lie, and more and more exceptions until the rule has been broken.

At some point we have to start over and find a way to protect people without bending reality to do it.

Stephen knows exactly what we will say before we say it.

Does that matter, though? If Stephen can be persuaded to make substantive responses to the points made here, then a) we can rebut them if necessary and b) hundreds of posters and lurkers will read the arguments on both sides and be able to come to an informed position of their own.

I'm confident in my side. Happy to lay it all out for anyone to read. Also convinced that Stephen may regret engaging with any substance. Stephen's is not the majority position, or the just one either, for that matter.

Yes Stephen for god sake person up and listen to what we're saying. We are worried that autogynaphilic mits will be wanking off in the next cubicle or pushing women into cubicles and locking the door and getting their penis out and raping us. These acts are not possible by transexuals of the traditional type who have had surgery.

I'm happy to take this in good faith and even if it's not, we've been asking people to come and debate rather than just shout "transphobe" and run away for ages.

And you only have to read articles by Paris Lees to know that this type of transperson loses none of their sex drive and j**s off all over the place

Langcleg he can't be. He was President of WPATH for God's sale. He hasn't changed his mind. He won't.

Keep a view of the wider readership and archiving of this thread: it's not just about Stephen. I think there's more to be gained than lost by at least attempting to engage in a real discussion.

I mean it's worth for lurkers, you're right about that.

I'll be off and let you chat 🙂👍

Jelly frizz he is exploiting the call for debate. It's just a show. Anyway I'll let you to it, you are all right about the wider readership.

Langcleg he can't be. He was President of WPATH for God's sale. He hasn't changed his mind. He won't.

Can't be what? I don't get you.

Stephen can come on here and use emotional language in order to manipulate our female socialisation when wombling on for an age about personal anecdotes. It might fool some but it won't fool me.

But Stephen has also responded substantively:

*On Swim England, Stephen told us that Stephen had no understanding whatsoever of what the action was about - that the guidance discriminated against both women and TIFs/transmen. This shows a shocking ignorance of the issues from someone supposedly prominent in the pro-trans side of things.

*On Girl Guides, Stephen was also ignorant of the parental consent aspect of the new guidance. This does not inspire confidence in Stephen's grasp of this issue. Stephen also confirmed that sexual activity between minors possibly leading to pregnancy is not a safeguarding issue for Stephen. Stephen also asserted that consensual sexual activity between minors on Guide trips is a positive thing because it will lead to nice memories in later life. Parents reading may disagree.

*Stephen also stated that Stephen feels women's right to free association should be restricted so that it is the exception. Women reading may disagree. I know I bloody well do.

And that's just what I noticed. And that's just in a day. So y'know. I'm happy with it. People may agree with me. People may agree with Stephen. But we are beginning to get some clarity in the opposing arguments. This is a good thing.