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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Where are all the trans men? An Answer.

397 replies

1955stephen · 03/04/2018 23:23

Someone asked: I have also wondered where the trans men are in all this!

So decided to do a little of record ethnographic research and talked to a few of my 'trans men' mates about this, over my orange and soda, and their beer or two. I asked whether they would consider to contributing to an online debate., like the one on Mumsnet.
All said they really limit their online stuff to what is absolutely necessary for family and friend's purposes i.e. a bit of facebook and that's that. Though many said they used Whatsapp to talk with family quite a lot.
It seems some go onto computers when at work, but most don't even do that - they are very hands on people; a doctor, a ceo, a dentist, a teacher, a manager of a day centre, a physio, a occupational therapist, a firemen, a stable owner, a policeman.
They only go online when real life obliges them to do so - such as talking to their mum.
They said they go on to buy absolutely essential items; a sprogget needed to fix a toilet flush, bracket to fix the kid's bunk beds, or when told to change the milk order cos their partner was going to bed.
Two said they went online to get a new book on their kindle, or to find a film for their partner, their kids, their mother etc.
Most said they don't want the hassle of participating in online talking. As another put it: "by the time the evening has arrived, I have run out of words. I simply cannot carry on talking, and typing means saying the words in my head". (I understand that feeling) .
Another said "going on the computer is just too much when all I want to do is stop, eat, wash and go to sleep."
Another said "ask me to come round, and choose between 1. digging your garden, 2. print and pack 2000 newsletters, or 3. type words, I'll chose them in exactly that order: 1, 2 then 3".
And another said; "as a journalist I am online a lot - watching, but I limit my participation to when I have something worthwhile and different to say. That's not often".
It seems, therefore, from my small selection of consulted trans men, that most trans men limit computer use to work. And we just don't want to do it after that.
I understand because that is how I feel, and have no urge to change that.
There will be some who participate online (as I do to a limited extent), but if people don't want to, they don't have to - and they are probably mentally healthier for not doing so.
Has anyone counted up men's and women's use of talking chambers on the internet? I wonder what hormones have to do with it..

OP posts:
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Terfmore · 09/04/2018 22:56

The link you provided

"Gender identity issues do not just affect adults; children even as young as 2 years old can be diagnosed with ‘gender dysphoria’ or ‘gender identity disorder’."

Do you have evidence of 2 year olds diagnosed in this way?
Could you provide statistics?

It is the first sentence of the page you provided. It would be helpful if you clarify that point first so we can move on to the difficulties with the rest of the page.

Your second point -
The Scout guidance tells people to use gender neutral terms. Some people would say that goes against common sense. I can't see a problem with the Times reporting. The tone is different but they are a newspaper not an organisation supporting trans peoples' rights.

AgnesBadenPowell · 09/04/2018 23:08

I've tried to ignore this thread as the OP is disingenuous, patronising and seems to see his role here as "educating" those who don't agree with him.

But I can't ignore it any more.

The OP is conflating two separate issues.

Scouts is a mixed sex organisation now (and NOTHING to do with The Guide Association, better know by its operating name, Girlguiding UK).

Scouts naturally have mixed sex events and residentials. Accommodation is not necessarily segregated by sex but crucially they do not have a rule that forbids its leaders from informing parents. If children, parents and leaders are happy with mixed sex arrangements, then that's great. But that's not what's happening in Girlguiding.

There's also a preoccupation with sexual activity. While I agree it's a safeguarding concern, mixed sex (trans girl and girls) accommodation also poses significant issues regarding privacy and dignity that Stephen has overlooked.

I remember all too well being terrified that my first period would start on a camp. I was embarrassed by my changing body. I was mortified that someone (even another girl) would hear me opening sanitary towels in the toilet block. If I needed assistance changing bed linen or my clothes, I would need a female leader, who's experienced this herself, to help me.

I don't doubt for a second that the trans girl is also embarrassed and anxious about their body.

So how exactly does it help, by forcing these groups to share intimate spaces?

PencilsInSpace · 09/04/2018 23:14

I responded, as I am sure others did, to an open consultation which was accessible for all to engage with.

I'd be really interested if you can find the link to this.

There's a massive difference between the attention that will have been paid to your response to such a consultation and how our contributions will have been received.

There was some really alarming written evidence submitted to the trans equality inquiry in 2015, including British Association of Gender Identity Specialists and The British Psychological Society (neither are noted radical feminist orgs). You won't find much reference to these alarm signals from frontline professionals in the final report because the government didn't listen to those people. None of them were asked to submit further documents or invited to give oral evidence. After the report was published, Maria Miller dismissed any dissent as coming from 'women purporting to be feminists'.

The people Miller actually consulted for the trans equality report were transactivists:

Action for Trans Health (Jess Bradley)
GIRES (Terry Reed)
Trans Media Watch (Helen Belcher)
Mermaids ( Susie Green )
Anna Lee (Lancaster University Students’ Union)
Gendered Intelligence (Jay Stewart)
Scottish Transgender Alliance (James Morton)

Also some govt. departments and a few individual trans people.

No women's groups were consulted. They were permitted to submit written evidence, as were we all. It just wasn't considered important.

BettyGilpin · 09/04/2018 23:22

DebbieinBirmingham - that is a brilliant piece - thankyou so much for articulating that position so well - if only there were more voices like yours.
ILookedintheMirror - I agree with you completely, and don't understand why anyone who is supportive of Trans Rights but wary of Self ID are being attacked in such a misogynous and vicious way online at the moment, not only by many TRA activists but by men in general. Sympathies for what your child is going through and hope they get the outcome they wish for.

PencilsInSpace · 09/04/2018 23:30

Stephen. This a parenting forum. Nobody here wants their child to be sharing a tent with a child of the opposite sex (no matter how they identify) when they're away camping without us there. Especially if we're not allowed to be told about it and given the chance to discuss and consent.

LangCleg is absolutely right this is a huge safeguarding issue.

Your continued efforts to justify such arrangements are starting to look a wee bit creepy.

You said you'd listen to us.

Italiangreyhound · 10/04/2018 01:30

@DebbieInBirmingham that article is brilliant. I read it last week and thought it was so well written.

@ILookedintheWater that's a really good post. I'm sorry for all you and your child are going through/have gone through.

I can't really see how legal self Id will help. Is your child trying to get a GRC? Can that be done while one is on waiting lists for other treatment? Sorry I am quite new to this and just do not know.

My fear is as @SpartacusAutisticus says "If gender dysphoria was de-pathologised and removed from diagnostic manuals I guess it would mean an end to medical treatments."

I'm not a Tory but I had a degree of respect for Theresa May, but when she said 'Being trans is not a medical issue' or words to that affect, I immediately thought well how is the NHS going to deal with a non-medical issue! Exactly the way they dealt with my small, unsightly, non-medical mole! Nothing! Maybe that is not the case but in the long ru of being trans is not medical where dies that leave the boys of it that are medical?

Also if anyone can identify as trans then who will speak for the 'trans community' officially? Anyone?

Could we all be trans and speak about what it means to be trans? It just feels so bloody dishonest! With transsexuals and GRC we know we are working within set parameters.

Italiangreyhound · 10/04/2018 01:54

@1955stephen
" It is the policy of Girlguiding to make every effort to safeguard its members from physical, sexual and emotional harm while participating in guiding activities. "

I am afraid that now to me that is a big fat lie.

As a mum to a daughter once in Guides, I would simply expect single sex overnight accommodation and I expect the vast majority of parents would rightly expect this too.

Gaslighting girls and telling then that a natal boy is a girl is a harm. It destroys girls' boundaries. Any failure to see that parents are not expecting their daughters to be sharing with boys, shows no understanding.

Unless Guides comes to its senses I fully expect this current safe guarding issue will destroy Guides and I am sorry about that.

But that is what happens when you put the needs of a tiny number of natal males over the protection of girls.

If it doesn't cause an implosion, it is more scary. It means the girls (and parents) have accepted that girls no longer deserve single sex spaces even in an organization for girls!

DN4GeekinDerby · 10/04/2018 02:18

Stephen Whittle, you must realize you and your academic-friendly social bubble is not a good representative sample to answer the question? Honestly, I'm not sure the purpose of that other than to show what cozy cocoon you and yours have been able to make so you can ignore what's going on with the rest of us and that has nothing to do with being trans men or dysphoric. I think your bubble has left you out of a lot going on within our communities, many have and continue to live in the purge world, today is a very strange time too.

Those who 'go on the computer' more can see the various popular sites where the fetishization of the rape and forced pregnancy of trans men and other female dysphoric people on various popular sites. We can see the social media sites where when we speak up, we get told we're using our "masculine privilege" and threatened with violence, rape, and murder. We can see, regardless of dysphoria or how we identify, females are at a significantly higher risk of male violence than our male counterparts which is why many of us don't use male spaces even when they're "given to us" (which I find a highly debatable idea). That's why so many of us have fought for years for unisex single stall public facilities, we know that many of us are getting left out and still at risk.

The answers to where are all the trans men is not 'oh, all out doing suitably manly hobbies and skills around the house'. That is the most patronizing bullshit though there has been quite a bit to choose from. It's like saying the reason that there aren't more women publically praised for activism is that they're all knitting and cooking and just too tired for all that. We can't pretend that there are not systemic reasons both within wider society and within the current trans rights movement which, while trying to act revolutionary, does keep a lot of the same power hierarchies tightly in place, that has continued to ignore and silence the voices and contributions of so many female dysphoric people across all identities.

Just like the rest of society, most of us don't have naice careers but survival jobs if that, most are struggling, self medicating is a massive issue both on online bought hormones people are treating as their only hope to the pain alongside a fuckton of alcohol, drugs, and painkillers, actually face to face time with professionals is shrinking as are most services, so many are just trying to keep a roof let alone have a garden to do whatever in. The image painted in the OP I find is a bad if kind attempt to say we're just like everyone else, but forgets most aren't that well off and most activists do the daily stuff alongside jobs and all the other stuff...many just because it's needed to survive, to hope tomorrow might be better.

And really, I find the idea that in response to questioning and concerns about pregnancies on mixed sex trips for the GGA, you jumped to the GGA's contraception advice which is meant to be general sex ed and not for what to do on trips in their care and very much not an appropriate response to how to deal with the concerns about the inclusion of possibly dysphoric males. These are 11-15 year olds, these are all underage kids and the very least they deserve is safe sleeping spaces on trips. We're struggling to deal with sexual harassment and threats made by boys against girls as young as 7, the concerns here aren't how to be the liberal fun parent but how, during the very difficult time of puberty, to safeguard their comfort, safety, and access to public activities as much as possible. If my Bible Belt high school with very little notice could arrange policies, changing facilities and ensure sleeping space on trips so that one dysphoric student could fully take part in an optional sport simply because I wanted to, then people who actually know about dysphoria should be able to put far more effort and consideration into the situation than condoms and emergency contraception pills.

Considering that at least half of dysphoric people have a history as victims of sexual abuse, and the related correlations between that and high risk sexual behaviours & several mental health conditions, dysphoric kids are in need of seriously considered protections and safeguards that you're suggestions completely ignore along with basic human empathy and considerations others have brought up. Really, no matter what identity you've chosen to fight in, you should be able to manage some compassion for other dysphoric people that the response to how to deal with the risks for and from a dysphoric young person should not be centered on contraception.

Your entire tone lacks compassion and understanding and while I'm sure you have so much more useful things to be doing, maybe consider for a minute what the grumpy suicidal teenage you might have needed. How would that child like to sleep in a room with boys on a trip, even if they'd been given condoms? Would that really show the kind of safeguarding and understanding that child would benefit most from? Would you have felt safe and wish to partake in that? Can you understand why many other female teenagers, no matter how dysphoric or not, would not be comfortable with that?

Enjoy India. Hopefully, you'll listen more to them in their space than you have to many here. There have been some great writing by others here and it would be nice to see them well responded to but by your record so far elsewhere and here does not fill me with confidence. Hopefully, the trans men and other female dysphoric activists coming up now will soon be in stronger positions to speak for us because I think those who have gotten in with power have forgotten what's going on for the rest of us. I like to have hope, I think we all deserve better, we'll all see though.

AgnesBadenPowell · 10/04/2018 02:23

As a mum to a daughter once in Guides, I would simply expect single sex overnight accommodation and I expect the vast majority of parents would rightly expect this too

As a Girl Guide leader, I agree with you. Parents expect single sex accommodation. And it's not fair or right to expect Leaders to pretend otherwise.

Gaslighting girls and telling then that a natal boy is a girl is a harm. It destroys girls' boundaries. Any failure to see that parents are not expecting their daughters to be sharing with boys, shows no understanding

I couldn't agree more. GG is telling girls that when a man tells you something, you go along with it, without question.

Unless Guides comes to its senses I fully expect this current safe guarding issue will destroy Guides and I am sorry about that

As a leader, I have the same fears. This once great organisation has sold out its soul, its royal charter and most importantly, the girls it was designed to serve, to be please a trans rights activist group.

There are leaders who share this view but who cannot speak freely for fear of reprisals.

Italiangreyhound · 10/04/2018 03:37

@needyourlovingtouch do you mean the fact that all political parties are looking at reintroducing self id on gender? Which will be taken as self Id on sex, and mean by some form filling any male can identify as a female? Can anyone else word it better than that?

If not happy about this, you can sign a petition for women to be consulted on this petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

Italiangreyhound · 10/04/2018 03:56

Brilliant post @DN4GeekinDerby thank you for honesty and your clear and concise writing.

@needyourlovingtouch "I've read this post but don't really understand the dislike of f to m trans people. I understand why women are upset by m to f invading their spaces but the other way around I can't understand."

What makes you think anyone dislikes Trans men? I am very sorry for any person who feels so unhappy in their body they would feel the need to take harmful drugs and have surgery to feel at home in their own body.

I am very sad alarmingly high numbers of young girls are claiming to be 'boys' and seeking help. There are terms being used now such as Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria.

From what people say it is a body dysphoria, a sexual dysphoria, not really about 'gender' as in just wanting to wear different clothes.

"Part of me feels that if a trans person genuinely needs to change sex then that should be celebrated as it must be emotional painful to be in the wrong sex and lead to many suicides."

Well, a person cannot physically change their sex, it is written into the DNA in every cell of your body. But if it relieves a person's dysphoria to take meditation or have surgery it may be that this is the best thing for then to do. Clothes, hobbies, jobs, pretty much everyone can do anything.

No one wants young people or anyone to committee suicide. The people with dysphoria are our friends and relatives not necessarily strangers. And even if they are strangers many of us are supportive of trans people on real life.

I'll leave it to a trans person or parents of any trans person to say whether it is a celebration. Maybe things change and parents or individuals feel that this is the best option for an individual but I would imagine it is a very difficult route.

As I get older I see that life is a celebration because we survive all manner of things, but I do think individuals should choose their own milestones.

A very simple example is our son is adopted. Some families celebrate the date a child joins the family. Our son made it clear early on he did not want to celebrate the anniversary of joining our family. Not that he is unhappy, thankfully, but I think he doesn't want to mark that.

Gender critical people are being tarred as hating trans people. This is not true. I was and am very supportive of genuine transsexuals. For people with dysphoria they need to work out how best to feel well, being rushed into transitioning as young people dies not seem helpful.

Like many here there are people in my wonder family and friends and wider family of friends who are either trans or are struggling with gender identity. So I personally do not hate it dislike anyone.

Italiangreyhound · 10/04/2018 03:56

introducing not reintroducing.

Italiangreyhound · 10/04/2018 03:57

All main political parties.

AngryAttackKittens · 10/04/2018 07:05

Stephen, RE your comment at 13:56 - I don't think you failed. I think society failed you. I want society to stop failing people who're GNC. I think that if trying to pass themselves off as the opposite sex is the only option realistically available to those people, we're failing them.

I have an old friend who was a lesbian and who decided to transition after being sexually assaulted because she was a lesbian. Society failed her. She was traumatized and terrified, and thought that "becoming a man" would keep her safe. It doesn't. I'm sure you know that.

I want it to be OK for women to be masculine, and for men to be feminine, without society making life miserable for them. Ideally we'd eventually get to a point where even the terms masculine and feminine to describe things like personalities or interests rather than bodies would become obsolete, but we're not anywhere close to there yet. We were closer in the 80s than we are now, and that worries me. I think that the current push towards masculine women and feminine men identifying as the other sex rather than just having the personalities and interests they have along with the biological sex they have is a step back, not forwards.

We all know that the majority of those currently describing themselves as trans do not have physical dysphoria of the kind that used to be needed to be considered transsexual. You've admitted that you know it too. Do you think that's OK? Do you think transitioning is the best solution for those people?

In terms of the discussion about how to handle the possibility of Guides getting pregnant because they're sharing tents with male people, I agree with LangCleg. You're incredibly out of step with what the majority of parents want for their children, and I hope that as many of those parents as possible see what you've written here, because if you're right and that's official GG policy then that's something that parents need to know.

ILookedintheWater · 10/04/2018 07:30

Ilooked I really feel for you and your child. I feel so sad to think of any kid having something as huge as SRS but I wish you both well. I hope your child comes out a happier person for transitioning. It must be immensely difficult to have to watch on knowing you can't change their mind
I have never tried to change their mind. My attempts in the early stages to understand and ask questions caused them extreme distress. I've supported them as best I can and waited. I've let them drive the process at their own pace. There are times where the delays in provision have made them very unhappy. I believe cases like my child's are why there is a push to self ID, just to make transition less painful. Which would be a good thing for them.
What isn't a good thing, in my opinion, is the fact that the term 'transgender' now covers anyone who is gender non-conforming, rather than dysphoric, if the individual wants it to. If self-ID is adopted, legal protections afforded women will be available for men who choose to dress as women, whatever their motivation, with no concurrent attempt at genuine transition.
I think the focus on the GGUK in this thread is a shame: in reality a trans child joining a unit would be known to their peers, and although the guidance states that the leader should not break confidentiality by discussing the status of any child, they still have a duty of care to provide a safe environment for everyone and address each individual's needs. I'm a GGUK leader myself and I cannot see a situation where this could not be managed sensitively and safely. There is a difference in the motivation between a teen who wishes themselves to change gender and a man who may be predatory.

Stephen, I really appreciate the fact that you have decided to engage with MN. I also fully understand that you come from a perspective of improving the difficult situation for transpeople.

Do you believe that the current huge increase in numbers of people identifying as trans is a reflection of a real increase in the gender dysphoria you and many of your friends experienced?
Do you believe that a simplification of the GRC requirements to 'wanting to live as the opposite gender and signing to that effect' without any assessment or medical treatment is in the best interest of young people who may be gender non-conforming or women who are being asked to share the few places exempted by the EA.
Do you understand why some women are concerned, even if you don't agree with their concerns?

MargeH · 10/04/2018 07:53

@DN4GeekinDerby

Thank you for such a heartfelt post, and for having the courage to speak with such frankness.

You touched on one point that has had me thinking too

Just like the rest of society, most of us don't have naice careers

Stephen has done very well out of being an activist in this field, hasn't he? Perhaps we should consider whether in fact it would be in the interests of him or his academic colleagues to let this go, because then there would be no trips to India part lecturing advocates, part research, no requests for a Swedish paper I have started writing, no OBE for for services to Gender Issues.

Maybe continuing the 'fight' is his raison d'etre?

I quoted Animal Farm upthread, which I reread a few months ago. It is surprisingly relevant today.

“I trust that every animal here appreciates the sacrifice that Comrade Napoleon has made in taking this extra labour upon himself. Do not imagine, comrades, that leadership is a pleasure! On the contrary, it is a deep and heavy responsibility. No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?”

morningrunner · 10/04/2018 08:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

user1487175389 · 10/04/2018 08:34

Being a trans man seems disproportionately exhausting, what with all that manly stuff they have to do all day Hmm

Janie143 · 10/04/2018 08:46

Yes it seems a lot of them don't even have time to "go on the computer" Weird when so many cis men seem to spend a disproportionate amount of time on them Hmm

LangCleg · 10/04/2018 08:49

DN4GeekinDerby

Thank you for that post.

AngryAttackKittens · 10/04/2018 08:53

I'd have thought that just about the most stereotyically manly thing one could do nowadays is to use the internet to view porn.

(Please note that this is the exact opposite of an endorsement of that behavior.)

LangCleg · 10/04/2018 08:57

AgnesBadenPowell - I am largely responsible for the thread's concentration on unplanned pregnancies. Sorry! I kept coming back to Stephen with it because it seemed to be the most factual, least nebulous issue so we'd stand the best chance of getting a straight answer. I realised it deflected from all the other aspects of the new Guide policy - building self esteem and empowering young girls and everything else. I think we did manage to establish Stephen's position on pregnancy and I think most parents will be horrified by it. But I am sorry it meant a lot of your other, important, concerns weren't given the attention they should have been.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 10/04/2018 09:06

Superb post DN4GeekinDerby

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 10/04/2018 09:25

I think one of the worst things about it is that the guides will 'expel' trans boys

I think i have that right

So female humans that might benefit from the camaraderie and ethos of guides won't be able to access it

In fact at a difficult time of their life they will have to leave the organisation

Ignore me if i have that wrong Grin

AngryAttackKittens · 10/04/2018 09:29

This is what I don't understand about Stephen's position, the apparent lack of understanding or concern about the fact that young people like Stephen once was will now not be able to benefit from GGs. If this had been a positive experience for you surely you'd want to make sure similar young people now had access to the same experience? But it seems not.