Where are all the trans men? An Answer.

[1955stephen]

Someone asked: I have also wondered where the trans men are in all this!

So decided to do a little of record ethnographic research and talked to a few of my 'trans men' mates about this, over my orange and soda, and their beer or two. I asked whether they would consider to contributing to an online debate., like the one on Mumsnet.
All said they really limit their online stuff to what is absolutely necessary for family and friend's purposes i.e. a bit of facebook and that's that. Though many said they used Whatsapp to talk with family quite a lot.
It seems some go onto computers when at work, but most don't even do that - they are very hands on people; a doctor, a ceo, a dentist, a teacher, a manager of a day centre, a physio, a occupational therapist, a firemen, a stable owner, a policeman.
They only go online when real life obliges them to do so - such as talking to their mum.
They said they go on to buy absolutely essential items; a sprogget needed to fix a toilet flush, bracket to fix the kid's bunk beds, or when told to change the milk order cos their partner was going to bed.
Two said they went online to get a new book on their kindle, or to find a film for their partner, their kids, their mother etc.
Most said they don't want the hassle of participating in online talking. As another put it: "by the time the evening has arrived, I have run out of words. I simply cannot carry on talking, and typing means saying the words in my head". (I understand that feeling) .
Another said "going on the computer is just too much when all I want to do is stop, eat, wash and go to sleep."
Another said "ask me to come round, and choose between 1. digging your garden, 2. print and pack 2000 newsletters, or 3. type words, I'll chose them in exactly that order: 1, 2 then 3".
And another said; "as a journalist I am online a lot - watching, but I limit my participation to when I have something worthwhile and different to say. That's not often".
It seems, therefore, from my small selection of consulted trans men, that most trans men limit computer use to work. And we just don't want to do it after that.
I understand because that is how I feel, and have no urge to change that.
There will be some who participate online (as I do to a limited extent), but if people don't want to, they don't have to - and they are probably mentally healthier for not doing so.
Has anyone counted up men's and women's use of talking chambers on the internet? I wonder what hormones have to do with it..

It's more the way transactivists follow male pattern behaviour and exhibit male privilege, whilst denying any such thing and insisting they're women. Because if you buy into what they're saying, it would be transmen driving it, not transwomen.

Indeed, Datun.

And does anyone think for a second that the TRA movement would have gained the traction it has, the social and political power and influence it has, in such a very short time if it had been led primarily by female people, brought up without male privilege, power and entitlement?

TIFs gain some legitimacy and representation through their adherence to the male dominated trans cult. Without that they’d be struggling to be heard just as much as us bog standard women.

And yy about the stereotypes, vaginafetishist! Of course only men can fix toilet flushes and bunk beds or dig gardens. And only women can be in charge of food shopping

It really is too busy being men and doing manly things NotDavidTennant.

Wondering if this was a deliberate missing of the point to demonstrate just how very manly transmen are or just really... not getting it?

Stephen, is it possible these anecdotes might have more to do with the age range of your friends, rather than their trans status?

'going on the computer'

Bless

thanks for explaining though and giving us An Answer.

TIMs justify access to the women's toilets because (among other things) they aren't safe from male aggression in the men's toilets.

TIFs retain their access to the women's toilets for exactly the same reason.

What would it benefit TIFs to be as noisy as TIMs?

Seriously though Stephen, you must surely be aware of the very recent exponential rise in children and young people IDing as trans, and the fact that there has been a huge reversal in the birth sex ratio so that referrals to Tavistock are now around 70% female?

From what I can make out, these girls and young women are not just 'going on the computer' when they have to buy a sprocket, they are spending huge amounts of time on tumblr and youtube.

Nobody was really asking why there were not more transmen on MN anyway. The interesting questions are things like -

Where are their demands to be in male spaces? (I realise lots of transmen pass very well anyway but lots don't)
Where are the transmen being championed in politics?
Why are transmen only in the news when they've had a baby or been raped?
Why are there a fuckton of lefty dudebros keen to tell us we are bigots for not swallowing the 'transwomen are women' mantra, while never having a thing to say about whether transmen are men?

Good questions but I fear Stephen is a plopper.

I don't like to be pedantic (well actually yes I do to be fair, but you know, I' socialised as a woman!) but for it to be ethnographic research he'd have to be hanging out with them in their every day lives. This would actually be a really interesting bit of research to do, but just chatting to people over a drink isn't ethnographic.

No, it's not about stereotypes, no siree.

My thoughts exactly

I don't like to be pedantic (well actually yes I do to be fair, but you know, I' socialised as a woman!) but for it to be ethnographic research he'd have to be hanging out with them in their every day lives. This would actually be a really interesting bit of research to do, but just chatting to people over a drink isn't ethnographic.

That was my implication! Sadly, as Stephen hasn't returned, we won't know how Stephen feels about either this, or the room's sexism elephant. Shame really!

"It seems some go onto computers when at work, but most don't even do that - they are very hands on people; a doctor, a ceo, a dentist, a teacher, a manager of a day centre, a physio, a occupational therapist, a firemen, a stable owner, a policeman. "

??

I'm pretty sure all of thos people will "go onto computers" when at work - is this post a joke?

You think doctors don't use computers at work? CEOs? Of what? A luddite amish community?

That is a v funny read it sounds entirely bonkers.

Plus

This idea that manly men are not really keen on posting on the net while women are because chatty chat chat

Internet is full of men posting on all manner of topics, all over the place, 24/7, this is one very small corner that is not male dominated.

I don't think Stephen Whittle is entirely bonkers, though the phrasing is certainly old-skool professor befitting a much older academic.

Just wish they'd knock off the nonsensical Transwomen are Women/ Transmen are Men stuff - 'aim to look like typical' / 'believe their inner self to be'/ 'identify with' would all work.

a luddite amish community

I'm going to say it again: I would really like to hear more from TIFs. I might well not agree with everything they think but they are a really vitally important part of the conversation.

I imagine there are many reasons why they might not want to engage with the debate and I'm concerned this thread is adding to them. I'm not surprised the OP hasn't been back, and I also think if I was a lurking TIF I would be put off joining in.

Hadn't read whole thread when posted -

This could be real?! and from an authority on the subject no less?

Well I never.

I found it interesting that Stephen perception of the question "Where are all the transmen" was so literal, as compared to so many of us who take it to be asking "Why don't we here so much about them as we do the TIM's?".

It indicates a thinking process that interests me.

This Stephen Whittle? Talks about TERFs and doesn't seem to get the difference between trans in 2005 vs. trans now.

They came on to start a conversation and have been ridiculed. We claim we are penis-exclusionary not trans-exclusionary, wouldn't it have been better to engage and to disagree in good faith?

Sorry, typing while tired: Stephen = Stephen's, here= hear etc

You’d think if stephen wanted to engage he’d have at least responded to one question. Given stephen is a professor you think he could engage in some discussion. But no he’s plopped.

That’s a bit harsh. Not everyone checks their social media every few minutes (even when they don’t have sprockets/sproggets/whatever to fix).

A fireman, a policeman, a doctor, etc.

It's very nearly the frickin' YMCA over at Stephen's orange soda table (with pints of man beer for the manly men of course).

If a genuine academic can't cope with the level of disagreement on here then they'd be pretty poor at their job. My experience is in the sciences but peer review can be far harsher and you'd expect basic errors in common sense (doctors don't use computers in their job? Is this 1950?) to be called out.

It's a guess that's who it is though right?

And people responded the way they always do

I admit I didn't read before posting because the OP read so peculiar to me.