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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Where are all the trans men? An Answer.

397 replies

1955stephen · 03/04/2018 23:23

Someone asked: I have also wondered where the trans men are in all this!

So decided to do a little of record ethnographic research and talked to a few of my 'trans men' mates about this, over my orange and soda, and their beer or two. I asked whether they would consider to contributing to an online debate., like the one on Mumsnet.
All said they really limit their online stuff to what is absolutely necessary for family and friend's purposes i.e. a bit of facebook and that's that. Though many said they used Whatsapp to talk with family quite a lot.
It seems some go onto computers when at work, but most don't even do that - they are very hands on people; a doctor, a ceo, a dentist, a teacher, a manager of a day centre, a physio, a occupational therapist, a firemen, a stable owner, a policeman.
They only go online when real life obliges them to do so - such as talking to their mum.
They said they go on to buy absolutely essential items; a sprogget needed to fix a toilet flush, bracket to fix the kid's bunk beds, or when told to change the milk order cos their partner was going to bed.
Two said they went online to get a new book on their kindle, or to find a film for their partner, their kids, their mother etc.
Most said they don't want the hassle of participating in online talking. As another put it: "by the time the evening has arrived, I have run out of words. I simply cannot carry on talking, and typing means saying the words in my head". (I understand that feeling) .
Another said "going on the computer is just too much when all I want to do is stop, eat, wash and go to sleep."
Another said "ask me to come round, and choose between 1. digging your garden, 2. print and pack 2000 newsletters, or 3. type words, I'll chose them in exactly that order: 1, 2 then 3".
And another said; "as a journalist I am online a lot - watching, but I limit my participation to when I have something worthwhile and different to say. That's not often".
It seems, therefore, from my small selection of consulted trans men, that most trans men limit computer use to work. And we just don't want to do it after that.
I understand because that is how I feel, and have no urge to change that.
There will be some who participate online (as I do to a limited extent), but if people don't want to, they don't have to - and they are probably mentally healthier for not doing so.
Has anyone counted up men's and women's use of talking chambers on the internet? I wonder what hormones have to do with it..

OP posts:
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thebewilderness · 05/04/2018 04:25

But I do think 'how' some people have spoken about trans folk,, particularly trans women, has been very provocative. The flames have, sadly, been stoked on both sides.

4th rule of misogyny: Women's opinions are violence against men thus male violence against women is justified.

Pratchet · 05/04/2018 04:31

This is a joke. You are not here in good faith. You came here pretending not to be one of the most powerful legal voices in the trans lobby. Pretending not to be one of the people who has left my daughter fighting once again for the rights that I should be handing down to her. Pretending to be disappointed and sad that it's all come to this, when you know why it's come to this - it's because you have been 'flying under the radar' changing laws and civic culture and institution for years and years, until we had to fight back.

Four kids yourself and you advocate sterilising children? We see you.

Pratchet · 05/04/2018 04:43

Oh gosh you're probably prepping a Guardian piece right now. 'How I tried to debate the Mumsnet feminists', full of wry asides and earnest protestations 🙄

lovetheway · 05/04/2018 06:31

My thinking is that I never was a woman, at best I became a grubby, grumpy, and suicidal teenager. My partner of 40 years is a woman and I know I never came close to her exalted status.

What the hell does this even mean? Many of us were grumpy suicidal teens - doesn't change our sex. And being a woman is NOT an 'exalted status' - it's just a fact of nature. Women can be how they want to be - it's not all being feminine and sparkly Angry

Wombman · 05/04/2018 06:50

For someone who doesn't go on the computer very often Stephen you do seem to tweet quite regularly (to Paris, Lily and Co. ), I'm surprised your old modem can keep up with you.

vaginafetishist · 05/04/2018 07:01

Stephen you are being disingenuous. You tweeted that your wife 'knew you were a bloke' because you couldn't remember your children's friends' names.

I appreciate you coming here to engage, it is interesting to hear from you. Changing sex is a fiction but you want to ensure that we endorse this delusion by claiming a woman can be a man and vice versa.

This ideology is wreaking untold havoc on the lives of women and children. No one has forced these male transactivists to become 'street fighters' and tell women to 'enjoy their erasure'. They enjoy this.

Pratchet · 05/04/2018 07:03

This is a win win for the trans lobb. Stephen comes here, we engage, he looks r

Pratchet · 05/04/2018 07:04

..reasonable, Stephen wins. Stephen comes here, we call him out due to his past record, we look unreasonable, Stephen wins. This is planned.

Winterlight · 05/04/2018 07:34

You say ‘My heroes are those in the many different anti-racism movements who put their lives on the line for the right of all to be free, equal and respected’.

Where is the respect for women’s views in the trans movement? We have been silenced, ignored or threatened. This is just about the only place where we are free to speak openly.

You have come to re-educate us haven’t you?

Pratchet · 05/04/2018 07:42

It's racist to appropriate race. Fight your own battles, Stephen. Stop pretending other people's oppression is your oppression.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 05/04/2018 07:51

It is another PR frontline

Then the way to deal with it is by courteous engagement and argument. Our arguments are very, very strong, and debate is in our favour.

Yes there will be TIFs taking the male rights side. But what about all the others who might benefit from thrashing things out in a safe space? How is shutting down one of their few visible representatives going to help?

Patodp · 05/04/2018 08:00

"I can tell you, your fears are unwarrented"
-Women's legitimate concerns are dismissed. Thanks.

"You are all mean to transwomen who are fighting for their lives (especially if they don't pass in the early days) "

  • Us women are now forced into an existential fight to be seen as a group seperate from men. When "fighting for their lives" includes punching 60 yr old women completely unprovoked, I can live with fighting back.

"We have thought long and hard about changes to the law that erase your rights to same-sex spaces and your right to define your existence with the word 'woman' "
-Thanks for that. What a mess you have made.

"We don't need to demand access to male spaces because they are given to us"

  • Complete blind spot to TIFs being no threat whatsoever to men, men find amusing or are not bothered, while a male bodied person in a female space is a different thing entirely. Complete blind spot to how many TIFS even retain access to female only spaces.

"I do not think equality is the same as liberation"

  • finally we're on the same page. Equality is not the same as liberation. Feminists have been fighting for liberation (Not Equality!) for generations. Liberation from Patriarchy. Liberation from restrictive sex-based stereotypes. Liberation from gender and all the expectation it brings. Liberation from control of our biology through rape, fgm, coerced marriage, child marriage, prostitution, etc.
The trans movement undoes all of this by dismantling the reality of our biological and physiologicsl existence. You can't even say "men are taller than women" without being ambushed by trans activists.

Stephen
Tell us what you think about the following statement.

"Women who fall pregnant through rape should be considered when drafting laws on abortion"

Please.

Pratchet · 05/04/2018 08:04

Talula: please go ahead, but it is pointless. This is sealion-ing and an attempt to fool us into thinking we can have any impact on the push to erase women.

GoodyMog · 05/04/2018 08:16

"her exalted status"

What on odd choice of phrase.

Suggests to me an ideal of womanhood which is almost unattainable - maybe a kind of ultra-femininity as pushed by media/advertising.

JeNeSuisPasVotreMiel · 05/04/2018 08:18

I’m sorry but something about this doesn’t ring true. I’m not sure what

My thoughts exactly

Silk29 · 05/04/2018 08:56

Stephen, would you agree it is misleading to open a discussion then refer to yourself in third person, as if pretending to be someone else? What do you intend to do with the content of this thread?

As for rape, I must admit I have never seen a rape story in the press about a trans man

A quick google search came up with:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-41614755

maleviolence.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/overcoming-sexual-assault-e28094-medium.pdf (written by a trans woman who raped a trans man) and storify.com/auntiewanda/biko (Tweets by the victim).

If you read further into the experiences of trans men, you will discover loads have been raped and sexually assaulted by men.

LangCleg · 05/04/2018 08:57

Stephen - please do not use this thread to "gift" us with your extensive reflections, which are all about you and your community. This is a common deflection tactic used on here by people (trans or transactivists) who wish to divert the conversation from substantive gender critical points. I can see and read such personal anecdotes anywhere - on Twitter, on blogs, in endless pro-TRA articles in the MSM, even BBC3 is shoving them down my throat on an at least weekly basis.

Rude of me to say this? Perhaps.

But this is a discussion forum. We women here have substantive points. If you come on here, as other trans people have done, and your contribution amounts to endless words about yourself and your friends but never engage in the detail of our substantive points, there is no value for you or us in your coming here. Alternatively, we do have some lovely trans people who do actually engage with the substance of our arguments. Which are you?

Can you, for example, give me simple yes or no answers to these questions:

Should women's DV refuges remain single sex? Yes or no?

Should Girl Guides have unsupervised mixed sex overnight accommodation for teens? Yes or no?

Was the Swim England trans guidance sexist when it said breasts should be covered but penises should swing free? Yes or no?

I could ask you fifty questions like this. If you can't - or won't - answer them in a straightforward manner, I question the value of your contribution here.

jellyfrizz · 05/04/2018 09:29

"We have thought long and hard about changes to the law that erase your rights to same-sex spaces and your right to define your existence with the word 'woman' "

Who is 'we'? Also who are you referring to when you say 'your' here?

1955stephen · 05/04/2018 09:40

Very sorry to see that thebewilderness and Pratchet have chosen to opt out.
Pratchet says:
What a surprise, from being invisible they're suddenly here and there on social media, pretending to be reasonable. We see you.

I am not invisible, in fact I have not been invisible – anywhere – for the last 26 years. You will find my posts on facebook and twitter.
As for pretending to be reasonable, what can I say. It is the only way to have shared discourse. Being unreasonable won’t create any sort of understanding.

Thebewilderness says
If affirmation of your delusion is the price I have to pay to talk with you I will pass.I am not willing to lie, and I am astonished that you claim dishonesty "It's only words , and it won't harm you, but to not do so might harm me"

To be frank, I do not know whether my ‘delusion’ is that, or anything else. But then no one else has that answer either. There have been several papers published over the last 10 years purporting to have ‘found’ the basis of the gender identity of trans folk. e.g. differences in one of the 16 (known) sex dimorphic nuclei (tiny bundles of cells in the brain normally different in number according to the biological sex of a person) - But as no one is quite sure what the sex dimorphic nuclei do, it is hard to say these differences mean anything also. There is research demonstrating apparent ‘sections of genes’ which are different for those who female to male trans people, when what that means is just not known, as to date it is impossible for us to say how most of our genome works, and why it works, and what it does.

I don't know if any of that research has any meaning for any of us, because I am not sufficiently knowledgeable in the science. But ...
as I often think "Thank god I am a human rights lawyer, so I don't have to work out why people exist, my only concern is that they exist"

Colette Chiland, a French psychologist who clearly did not feel at all happy about increasing numbers of people requesting gender reassignment (in the 1970s) , in her second book on the subject; Exploring Transsexualism, did ask "is this a mad idea?” and I understand exactly that might, I have asked myself the same question many times.

Chilland poses the question (again in the 2nd book) “Is this a delusion? Or is it an illusion?”.
If the first, then she asks why has no psychotherapeutic resolution (cure) been found. A counter argument is that there has been no such resolution for most of those mental illnesses which are grounded in delusions.
If the second, ’an illusion’, then she suggests we have to investigate what drives us: why are ‘we’ spending our time (money and infinite amounts of energy) creating these illusions, Is it so that we (for trans men) get access to power and material wealth, and (for trans women) access women’s space and culture, and consequently women’s bodies.

For me, are both inadequate responses to the question of whether this is a mad idea. But then I don’t have a simple answer either- certainly not short answers for this morning, other than to say that one alternative would be that what we (some of us at least) claim might be true, we are the people of the gender we say we are. But then if gender isn’t real, then that is also an inadequate answer.

I can’t write a full-scale essay every day, but to answer UniqueHornsOnly who asked:
“Do you believe that women and girls have a right to single-sex spaces? For clarity, I mean a distinction based on biological sex, not gender identity.”

Yes of course I do. I was at one time a Queen's Guide, deputy head girl and cricket captain in an all-Girls School, and then a member of a lesbian collective. Those Spaces allowed my consciousness raising, the awakening of understanding of the unjust burdens that girls and women carry. Those Spaces made me a committed feminist with a determination to contribute to justice for women.

I’ll admit, that being a ‘Custom-home-Built model’ means I truly don’t have those same understandings in relation to what it means to be a ‘factory fitted’ boy or man.

Trans Spaces have enabled me to be conscious of the pervasive prejudice, discrimination, and often violent transphobia every trans person experiences almost all of the time. Before those spaces, we used to be grateful for ‘what little we thought we had got’. Our Space allowed us to understand how we were sacrificed repeatedly to an archaic modernist understanding that dictates gender as only ever a rigidly ruled binary.

Having a Space is crucial for all minorities, and powerless groups. It enables the consciousness raising which facilitates participation in creating real changes (and for girls and women, it was such Spaces – in people’s homes – that have allowed the advancement of core feminist theory and understandings.
As I believe in Trans only Space - allowed our consciousness raising - again in each other’s homes, spaces over which of course, men, women, or tans people have some real control as to access.

Similarly, I also think ‘Men is Sheds’ is a great space for effective consciousness raising amongst men.

Yet for 70 years, women and trans women have been using the same loos, often together, sometimes with knowledge, often without.
Trans women are not the people to fear when going to the loos. I can honestly assure you, that trans women are as frightened, if not more, of the man in the loos who attacks women.
They know that a criminal man who assaulted them would leave them for dead or close to it. Someone on MN suggested trans women should have to use the men’s loos, effectively they are suggesting that trans women should daily enter a cage fight with tigers. That would also suggest a willingness to see the bearded faces of me and my mates in ‘your’ loos. That is clearly not the solution.

Of course. the answer to the loos is relatively easy;

-- Women’s loos for all who can only feel comfortable peeing when they ‘know’ the other people in there are, like them, ‘read’ as ‘real’ women.
-- Men’s loos for all those who can only feel safe in a space inhabited by other people who are ‘read’ as ’real men’, and
as my work building has just had created

-- gender-neutral loos.
In my work building there are also more non-gender-neutral loos. And within all those ‘loos’ the spaces are civilised, in the way loss are at home i.e. no urinals, and each loo cubicle is a fully closed room, with no opportunity for peeping toms or glory holes.

There are Spaces and there are Spaces.
Most spaces are for sharing; church, the bar, the cinema, the Golf Club, the football stand, the Theatre, are in principle places for people to be together. Sure, you can have ‘special events’ but they must be exactly that; the exceptions.

I absolutely believe in ‘women only lists’ to increase women’s participation in government. But you can’t have that, and another assumptive space for men, and then not be willing to create the equivalent for those who don’t fit into of the modernist definitions of what a woman or a man is.
Just as women-only lists cannot work if women are then only selected to stand in marginal constituencies, similarly trans men and women must not be denigrated to the position of being tokens – people who buy a lottery ticket, but who can never, in the rules of the game, win the prize.
Similarly people with disabilities, older people, Asian men, Black women must be able to win, otherwise they are merely tokens, to prove someone else’s claim to ‘right-on’ politics.

If we want for example, to afford trans men and women an equal and respected opportunity to participate in the political process; to be elected to parliament, I suggest we must make those complex decisions together.

When I went to see the Vagina Monologues, how brilliant it was that the other men in the audience were getting a tiny sense of what it might be like to live with a vagina.
Let’s say I was asked to take part, would it be reasonable for women to campaign for the exclusion of my voice. Surely, I have as much to say as anyone else who has lived with a vagina and importantly, it would give my community their voice and their sense of belonging.
Of course, being (I hope) honestly ‘reasonable in my dishonest delusions’, I would not wish to take up a woman’s space in the show, I would consider just the one opportunity – the special as the exception.

In-group Spaces are not an absolute right, but are, at times, essential.

I will respond to the points posed about the new generation of trans kids, the aggression seen by women from some trans women on some parts of social media, etc. etc. when I can get to them, but I do have to work, sorry.

OP posts:
Pratchet · 05/04/2018 09:46

Oh are you 'very sorry'? I'm devastated my daughter's losing her sex-based rights but apparently my fears are 'unfounded'.

As you point out, your record speaks for itself. You helped bring us to this point. Shame on you.

BarrackerBarmer · 05/04/2018 09:49

It's odd to consider that most of us are the same sex as Stephen and possibly share some very similar personality traits and that ostensibly the only tangible difference between us is the willingness to lay claim to a three letter noun that means 'of the sex that makes sperm' and contort it to mean nothing.

When men consider transwomen their response often seems to be to distance themselves.
When I consider transmen I see another woman.
I wonder if they truly believe in the male mind? Or if it's just too late to undo it all once that transition has been committed to.

FencingFightingTorture35 · 05/04/2018 09:53

“Do you believe that women and girls have a right to single-sex spaces? For clarity, I mean a distinction based on biological sex, not gender identity.”

Yes of course I do

Fantastic. This is so hugely important. I would love to see you shouting really loudly about this one in the public sphere. Your voice has weight on this matter and it's a crucial point. It's what women want in much more than just toilets. If TRA's were calling for that, you'd find so many more women adding their voice in support of you having your own safe spaces, political representation and shortlists which give you a voice or power in other capacities.

So many people in your shoes yell 'bigot' at us when we say we want safe spaces for women. It isn't rocket science that we won't budge on that.

1955stephen · 05/04/2018 09:54

Oh damn - I will end up sacked.
LangCleg asks me to answer the following (but then doesn't want my extensive reflections)

Should women's DV refuges remain single sex? Yes or no?

Yes, that is their right - under the law.
I would ask that DV boards consider (if they can find the time) ensuring they clarify and advertise their terms, making then absolutely clear, and very public so nobody can claim confusion.
Unfortunately, trans folk are not sufficient in numbers, nor yet organised enough to provide the equivalent spaces for those of our community who experience DV from family members, or partners. But that is our problem, not yours.

Should Girl Guides have unsupervised mixed sex overnight accommodation for teens? Yes or no?

Yes - as is their right under the law.

I also respect the right of parents of young teens to feel entitled to contribute to the decision, if they have kids who go to these events. And I respect the right of older teens who will go, to contribute to the decision.
But I don't think anyone has the absolute answer, it will at times be determined by available space, volunteer adult time, and money of course.

But, you know, as a ranger guide I appreciated the gentleness of the the venture scout, who introduced me to the idea of pleasant sex. But I do wish we had had access a nice warm mattress, rather than a rather painful bed of heather.

Was the Swim England trans guidance sexist when it said breasts should be covered but penises should swing free? Yes or no?

Did swim England say Penis's should swing free, Where - I would like to see the original before responding to this, as I have not heard of this issue before.

OP posts:
LangCleg · 05/04/2018 10:02

Sure, you can have ‘special events’ but they must be exactly that; the exceptions.

Oh, come on, Stephen. These spaces aren't for others to grant out of the goodness of their hearts. These spaces and special events (I'll try my best not to bridle at that particular patronising phrase) are women's right to organise whenever, however and as often as they see fit. It's commonly called free association. It's not a bloody privilege others allow us to have. It is disturbing to see you advocate restrictions on free association. This is not a hallmark of a liberal society.

Let’s say I was asked to take part, would it be reasonable for women to campaign for the exclusion of my voice.

Pomo-addled faux feminists might, but I don't know a single radfem who would do that. Because you are a born female whose perspective is valuable regardless of, or perhaps even including, how you identify. Radfems would want you there. They would object to a born male. Surely this is obvious?

Datun · 05/04/2018 10:02

Someone on MN suggested trans women should have to use the men’s loos, effectively they are suggesting that trans women should daily enter a cage fight with tigers.

This is one of the illogical tenets that perhaps you can help with.

Male violence is given as a reason for transwomen to not go into men's toilets.

But minimised as the reason for not wanting men in women's toilets.

Your answer appears to be based on whether someone passes?

In theory, if someone passes no one will know anyway and therefore it's not a problem.

In practice, there are very many men, particularly autogynephiles, who are profoundly convinced that they pass. And proving that, by entering women's spaces, is a fierce compulsion.

How do you suggest we manage that? Passing is only ever in the eye of the beholder.

Are you really expecting women and girls to confront a sexually motivated man over his right, as he sees it, to be in their space? Particularly as telling him he's a man would be incredibly dangerous.

Narcissistic rage is a key characteristic of AGP.