Where are all the trans men? An Answer.

[1955stephen]

Someone asked: I have also wondered where the trans men are in all this!

So decided to do a little of record ethnographic research and talked to a few of my 'trans men' mates about this, over my orange and soda, and their beer or two. I asked whether they would consider to contributing to an online debate., like the one on Mumsnet.
All said they really limit their online stuff to what is absolutely necessary for family and friend's purposes i.e. a bit of facebook and that's that. Though many said they used Whatsapp to talk with family quite a lot.
It seems some go onto computers when at work, but most don't even do that - they are very hands on people; a doctor, a ceo, a dentist, a teacher, a manager of a day centre, a physio, a occupational therapist, a firemen, a stable owner, a policeman.
They only go online when real life obliges them to do so - such as talking to their mum.
They said they go on to buy absolutely essential items; a sprogget needed to fix a toilet flush, bracket to fix the kid's bunk beds, or when told to change the milk order cos their partner was going to bed.
Two said they went online to get a new book on their kindle, or to find a film for their partner, their kids, their mother etc.
Most said they don't want the hassle of participating in online talking. As another put it: "by the time the evening has arrived, I have run out of words. I simply cannot carry on talking, and typing means saying the words in my head". (I understand that feeling) .
Another said "going on the computer is just too much when all I want to do is stop, eat, wash and go to sleep."
Another said "ask me to come round, and choose between 1. digging your garden, 2. print and pack 2000 newsletters, or 3. type words, I'll chose them in exactly that order: 1, 2 then 3".
And another said; "as a journalist I am online a lot - watching, but I limit my participation to when I have something worthwhile and different to say. That's not often".
It seems, therefore, from my small selection of consulted trans men, that most trans men limit computer use to work. And we just don't want to do it after that.
I understand because that is how I feel, and have no urge to change that.
There will be some who participate online (as I do to a limited extent), but if people don't want to, they don't have to - and they are probably mentally healthier for not doing so.
Has anyone counted up men's and women's use of talking chambers on the internet? I wonder what hormones have to do with it..

AngryAttackKittens
Stephen, RE your comment at 13:56 - I don't think you failed. I think society failed you. I want society to stop failing people who're GNC. I think that if trying to pass themselves off as the opposite sex is the only option realistically available to those people, we're failing them.

I agree with this. Stephen - you didn't fail, society failed you. It must have been enormously difficult being a lesbian in a society which was homophobic, with all the abuse you must have received. With that experience behind you, I am surprised and concerned at your silence on the topic of the current epidemic of teenage girls, many of them lesbians, who are suffering from gender identity issues.

Society needs to become more accepting of people who don't fit into gender boxes. Transgender ideology makes the boxes more rigid; a more progressive solution would be to get rid of the boxes altogether.

Ideally we'd eventually get to a point where even the terms masculine and feminine to describe things like personalities or interests rather than bodies would become obsolete, but we're not anywhere close to there yet. We were closer in the 80s than we are now, and that worries me.

You're so right that things were better in the 80s. I'm not sure when things started to go backwards, or how we can turn things around again so that it's OK to be whoever you are, whichever sex you are. Sex does not govern your personality.

Last night I saw part of a programme called 'Indian Summer School' on Channel 4. One of the boys taking part said he 'wants to be a girl'. He commented at one point how surprising it is that being transgender seems to be acceptable in India, but being gay isn't. I am not at all surprised. The transgender movement is not progressive.

@Rufustherenegadereindeer1 I have been told they will not expel trans boys but words to the affect of 'guide then towards a mixed gender group.' (Which dies definitely to me feel very similar).

italian

Yeah i though expel was wrong

Couldn't think of another way of saying it

But yeah...its the same

Fuck me but the gentle innocuous move from sex to gender has been a dreadful mistake

@Rufustherenegadereindeer1

Massive, isn't it. I hope common sense returns.

Dunno where it went wrong

My childhood in the 70's i was a tomboy...

In the 80's men wore makeup on TV!! In just about every household across the land parents were going 'i dont know if thats a boy or a girl' and children were going 'who cares!!' Gender was being turned upside down all over the place

I wasn't paying attention in the 90's

Was it the 90's...bet it was the 90's!!!

I don't think Stephen is coming back. I think many women have tried to engage with him honestly and in good faith, and that the posturing has been a bit of a waste of time and a bit disingenuous. It was a good thing that he came on, and always a good thing if trans people try to engage without threats or abuse [from both sides] but the cognitive dissonance in so much of what he said seems very strong. From an academic that is odd.

The word that keeps popping into my head to describe Stephen is 'nihilistic '.

Great post DN4 I always find your posts so informative.

You say some people are still living in purge world. Do you feel that way? If so is it a result of your dysphoria or something else?

Yy, Italian and Rufus.

And AgnesBP, this: GG is telling girls that when a man tells you something, you go along with it, without question.

This is one of the core problems with transactivism full stop. This is male privilege and misogyny in action. Women and girls who question the TRA “party line” have been reframed as bigots instead of who we are, a disadvantaged, often vulnerable, group, fighting for our rights and safety, against those who actually, truly, hold the power in society.

When you put it in the context of telling teenage girls that they have to defer to boys and men in this area, put their own needs, feelings and even safety aside and let the boys’ feelings take precedence, even though what we need to be doing is challenging that very same message in every other area, it’s beyond toxic.

It’s so dangerous. And with all these dreadful mixed messages it really is no wonder that there is this epidemic of ROGD. Of course they want to identify out of being perennially second class citizens, now they see that’s apparently an option. Except of course somewhere down the line they’ll see it isn’t, and that misogyny still hits them.

DN4 what a great post.

Brilliant to see so many fantastic MNers, as always, arguing so clearly and convincingly. I love you wimms.

I was mistaken for a boy for much of my childhood. I starved myself through my teens and twenties, longing for an androgynous body. I think, had someone offered me the option of transitioning, I would have considered it seriously. Had I fancied women too, I can imagine how attractive the prospect would have been. I hated my body until I had my kids. I just worry so much for kids in their teens now who may have gender dysphoria, or who may just be presenting in a masculine way as girls or a feminine way as boys. That they will lose the chance to make peace with their bodies as they mature, that they will lose the chance to be parents. This is NOT to say that there are not some people for whom transitioning is the best thing. But HOW do we differentiate, when now any suggestion that early intervention and affirmation is not always warranted, is called bigotry?

Stephen Whittle isn't always as respectful on Twitter. Still waiting for an evidence-based critique of the Transgender Trend School Resource Pack too.

Rufus - I think it could have been the 90s. In the 90s I caused shock by giving my DS a pushchair and a doll (mainly so he pushed that fast down hills instead of his little sister).

Personally I appreciate Stephen's bravery on coming on here - and in being so reasonable.
I disagree with some of his parenting views - but then my DC didn't have boyfriends or girlfriends at 13, and no long term relationships until much older than 15.

I do feel society is becoming quite toxic to young people, and especially girls. And I worry that this is why so many girls are identifying as trans. I also worry about the high correlation of gender dysmorphia and ASD, especially with the research that suggests that people with ASD tend to mature in their sexual identity later (much later) than the general population.

With Guiding I tend to think maybe leaders need to be more explicit about any kind of sexual activity not being acceptable. I would just as much hate my DD being sexually approached by another girl (natal) at Guide camp as a transgirl or boy (maybe a scout). My memories of Guide camp as safe spaces was, very much linked to the removal of any of the day to day sexual pressures (so we allowed hygiene to slip etc.).

@1955stephen I am sorry you had a really shit time as a child and young person. You do describe very well how awful it was. Was much of your awful treatment at the hands of men?

Either way, why are you so keen to remove protections for women and girls? Is this what you want to be remembered for?

"And you wonder why I fought back?'

No one wonders why you fought back.

But I do wonder why you want to sell girls and women down the river now. You have the GRA and GRCs for genuine transsexuals. Why would you want any male to be able to identify as a woman and get into single sex places with your daughters, wife and female friends, and my daughter and me?

"I however, decided that rather than get angry and get punished more,
Instead I would get educated and be cleverer than them,
Make sure I had a truly thick skin which water (abuse) flowed off,
and then I made sure I only fought the battles once I knew we could win them."

I am sure you have done good for transsexuals but I fear that your part in defending self id will be remembered.

I could literally cry now at the realisation how much you do not see the harm this is doing. Despite all your education and skills and starting life as a girl, you have failed to see the danger for women and girls. You claim to want to protect them!

I really do think we women do need our own political party, we need to do what you did, Stephen, fight back with education. But what a massive effort to retain what we currently have/had!

There is time for you to be of use to females. The longer you tell us we have nothing to worry about, the more we know there really is a lot to worry about.

I think being a girl in this culture is utterly crap. to all including Stephen who have found it so. I'm not surprised that so many young people are trying to identify out of it. But even leaving aside the potential long-term health consequences for those who do transition, these changes to the law and to social custom are inevitably going to make things worse for those who don't.

Surely the answer is strengthening protections for girls, not weakening them?

Hi all,

We are now back from our trip to India - an amazing, astonishing, and dreadful place.
Whilst there we were reading the news (some of which I am sure you have seen) about several fatal rapes of young girls, one apparently planned and perpetrated by retired civil servant and a group of policemen. In India, it felt like rape is simply one coin in the currency of masculinity for Indian men in their often petty fights over land, money, and power. I assume most will never use that coin, but clearly it is placed in the purses of them all.
And yet ... in Bengaluru (formerly Bangalore), we saw the classic Asian trope of poverty transport; motorbikes crammed with the entire family - 5 people in one case (see attached picture). Predominantly driven by men wearing full face crash helmets,not of great quality - on Alibaba you can buy them for £5 to £15, at best their wives often riding side-saddle, have what are known as summer helmets, minimum safety covering the top of the head only, available for £1 to £4, and their children and their mothers have nothing.
Travelling down what is effectively a motorway, I exclaimed my horror at a tiny little girl holding on behind her father, at around 100kmh. Our driver said that many such small children drop asleep, then fall only then to be run over by another vehicle. The death rates run at 10 per month just in Bengaluru city.
I thought about our children, and how one, P, always fell asleep whenever we travelled. So my next target, is to have the Indian government outlaw riding pillion without a helmet (of a set standard), and to then enforce it. And to introduce affordable helmets for adults and children, and affordable bike seats (upgraded versions of the ones we can add to bicycles) for children under the age of 7.

Welcome back, Stephen. Glad you had a productive trip.

Whilst there we were reading the news (some of which I am sure you have seen) about several fatal rapes of young girls, one apparently planned and perpetrated by retired civil servant and a group of policemen. In India, it felt like rape is simply one coin in the currency of masculinity for Indian men in their often petty fights over land, money, and power.

You'd be referring to sex-based crime here, right? The type that women cannot identify out of and men overwhelmingly commit?

yes Stephen I'm interested in why you think those particular children were singled out by the individuals you mention.

I have only scrolled through this thread, and perhaps I missed some gems.

Where are all the transmen? The simple answer is they are trotted out every time the 'transwoman' agenda needs bolstering, a kind of 'women do it too' scenario.

Certainly it saddens me that women are poisoning their bodies with hormones, and adopting some of the worst traits of the male gender role.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being born female, we are in fact, the 'default' of the species (males the subset). I do understand you wish to escape some of the crap that male domination throws at females, but there is a better way - stand and hold your ground, don't cave.

TIFs/FtTs are the pawns in the transgender 'game'. It's not a nice game btw, and it has costs, a lot of costs. For some of us, we just go, "well eff you assholes, we will expose your tactics", and that is the nature of feminism.

Hi Stephen. Not sure what helmet laws in India have to do with the conversation about girl guiding and its rules for overnight trips that we were having before you went on holiday?

it felt like rape is simply one coin in the currency of masculinity for Indian men in their often petty fights over land, money, and power. I assume most will never use that coin, but clearly it is placed in the purses of them all.

This coin is placed in the hands of all men, no matter how they identify, but not placed in your hand and can be used against all women and girls no matter how they identify.

Hi Stephen, welcome back.

It's been a busy few days, here are a few things you've missed:

Tara Wolf was convicted of assaulting Maria Maclachlan at Speakers Corner last September. During the trial, the judge insisted she refer to her attacker by female pronouns. She did her best but kept forgetting (having experienced something that was indistinguishable from male violence, and also having eyes). Because of her failure to consistently use the words she/her to refer to her attacker, she was denied compensation.

The Sunday Times printed a letter opposing the new GirlGuiding transgender policy. At time of publication it had more than 300 signatures. It now has 908. (FPFW link for those without a Times subscription).

The government petition - Consult with women on proposals to enshrine 'gender identity' in law hit 10K signatures so we can expect a government response.

A woman who had an internship at MNHQ stole user data and printed screenshots of some posts here with visible IP addresses. It's not known what other data she might have taken and shared, where or who with. She did this because she believes us to be transphobic. MNHQ have referred the matter to the ICO and the police.

A meeting in Bristol for women to talk about the GRA and EA was heavily disrupted by a group of what appeared to be mostly young men with their faces covered. They attempted to prevent access and trapped women on the stairs in an intimidatory fashion. You can read all about this and see videos of their behaviour here (there's also a thread in feminism).
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I read in a biography of yours that your activism grew out of membership of the Beaumont society, which in the olden days was an organisation for cross dressing men. I also found this old version of the 'trans umbrella' from 1994 which includes both transvestites and fetishistic cross dressers.

I was wondering whether you could say a bit about how you view the relationship between transvestites and fetishistic cross-dressers, and trans people. I don't believe people were generally aware of these links when the GRA was being debated. Certainly I had previously thought the inclusion of these men in 'trans' was a recent and disturbing development.

Do you think the GRA would have passed if people had known about this?

Thanks for coming back Stephen. Before you went I asked about the statement on the Scouts website. Don't worry if you don't remember but if you do it would be good to know your thoughts about the age at which a child could be considered "trans".

I had a very very brief look at the conference you attended in India. What caught my eye were discussions about a third gender. I have read of similar being considered by German govt. It would be helpful to hear your view on that rather than a travelogue! :-)

Just catching up on this important thread with its many key questions. Hope that it will carry on; these seem important to continue to discuss.
DN4GeekinDerby you write very powerfully, thank you.