Where are all the trans men? An Answer.

[1955stephen]

Someone asked: I have also wondered where the trans men are in all this!

So decided to do a little of record ethnographic research and talked to a few of my 'trans men' mates about this, over my orange and soda, and their beer or two. I asked whether they would consider to contributing to an online debate., like the one on Mumsnet.
All said they really limit their online stuff to what is absolutely necessary for family and friend's purposes i.e. a bit of facebook and that's that. Though many said they used Whatsapp to talk with family quite a lot.
It seems some go onto computers when at work, but most don't even do that - they are very hands on people; a doctor, a ceo, a dentist, a teacher, a manager of a day centre, a physio, a occupational therapist, a firemen, a stable owner, a policeman.
They only go online when real life obliges them to do so - such as talking to their mum.
They said they go on to buy absolutely essential items; a sprogget needed to fix a toilet flush, bracket to fix the kid's bunk beds, or when told to change the milk order cos their partner was going to bed.
Two said they went online to get a new book on their kindle, or to find a film for their partner, their kids, their mother etc.
Most said they don't want the hassle of participating in online talking. As another put it: "by the time the evening has arrived, I have run out of words. I simply cannot carry on talking, and typing means saying the words in my head". (I understand that feeling) .
Another said "going on the computer is just too much when all I want to do is stop, eat, wash and go to sleep."
Another said "ask me to come round, and choose between 1. digging your garden, 2. print and pack 2000 newsletters, or 3. type words, I'll chose them in exactly that order: 1, 2 then 3".
And another said; "as a journalist I am online a lot - watching, but I limit my participation to when I have something worthwhile and different to say. That's not often".
It seems, therefore, from my small selection of consulted trans men, that most trans men limit computer use to work. And we just don't want to do it after that.
I understand because that is how I feel, and have no urge to change that.
There will be some who participate online (as I do to a limited extent), but if people don't want to, they don't have to - and they are probably mentally healthier for not doing so.
Has anyone counted up men's and women's use of talking chambers on the internet? I wonder what hormones have to do with it..

OP you know a lot of people and LOT of trans men, all in different professions with different hobbies, a really overarching demographic.

Most people mix with a few people who do the same or similar jobs. Your social life is incredible.

Maybe Stephen thought to give it a bit of time after posting the topic to allow a range of replies before coming back to respond/answer etc.

(Stephen probably is a bit busy also.)

I have actually spent the last few weeks thinking and writing about many of these issues, but of course those 'informal notes' so to say, are far too long to post here.

I would like to start by saying I am presuming that we are having this conversation because we all have as our primary concern the shameful, ongoing and pervasive victimisation of children and women by some men.

In this conversation, there will be times when we offend each other, but I will assume that unless done with clear intention, we will all accept that it was unintentional.

ICJump (umhm - the names are amazing) says :
"I’m sorry but something about this doesn’t ring true. I’m not sure what."
then Donkeyskin (see what I mean) responds:
"I think it's the weird anthropological tone, reporting on trans-identified women as if they are an exotic lost tribe, especially the solemn exegesis on 'their' computer habits."

Firstly, this refers to myself and my friends as trans-identified women. Donkeyskin, I will assume it was not intended to be hurtful to my sense of self. To explain my take, I was a deeply unhappy child, before becoming a suicidal teenager, but then I grew up into ‘a Stephen’. Whatever you might think ‘a Stephen’ is, (and I am not sure myself) being ‘a Stephen’ ensured I did not become another suicide statistic. And I am certain you would not have wished to push me back into those sorts of dark spaces. My thinking is that I never was a woman, at best I became a grubby, grumpy, and suicidal teenager. My partner of 40 years is a woman and I know I never came close to her exalted status.

I do believe we must be willing to be kinder, and fairer, to each other in our conversations.
So I am asking, if out of politeness that you refer to me (and my mates who let me write up their answers) as a trans man. It's only words , and it won't harm you, but to not do so might harm me - or worse, close down any opportunity for conversation about the serious matters of the victimisation of children and women.

I am not pretending I was born male-bodied, and I do accept that I was raised as a girl with all the familial expectations, cultural weight and social control that came with that. However, I have been living in the gender role of a man for forty years now. If you met me, you would recognise me, and think “there goes a man” and rightly so because I have had the benefit of male privilege, albeit tempered with transphobia, for twice as long as I experienced any sense of being female

But that isn’t what we should be discussing, so back to the agenda.

Firstly, I wanted to find out and directly answer a question posed on Mum’s net; “why aren’t more trans men participating in these online discussions?”

Secondly, I am sorry about the tone, but I am an academic who does socio-legal research which means it usually takes me a long time to write the results of any research, but then it is all fully referenced and in the horrible restricted tone we develop for academic journals.

My piece on here was intended to be far more ephemeral than that.

To get the information 'out there' I needed to be less rigid and a little lighter in my writing style. In this case, I had a few drinks with friends and asked if any of them would consider participating in these online conversations. That's all, and I didn't want to write up their responses, framed by some heave theory, and methodological justification. The trouble is that does make me write something akin to a poorly drafted second-class Masters’ essay (that is my attempt at slightly humorous self-deprecation).

However, as a trans man, I am seriously trying to think how to engage commentators on the proposals for change. I would like to be able to explain:

• why many trans people have sought changes to the current legislation; and
• what the issues were that we thought long and hard about before making the request for those proposed legal changes, and
• why we think that the proposed fears being discussed must be heard, but
• why we believe the fears are almost certainly unwarranted.

A full and proper response to the concerns women are expressing will take some time to write. If I do that writing, I believe it is imperative that I clearly acknowledge the potentially serious nature of the concerns that some women are expressing. I want to make sure I have fully explained, in as clear a way as possible, that I do not think those fears can be just dismissed with a wave of a hand. They demand a serious, considered and evidenced response, nothing less.

To repeat the important starting point: we are all choosing to discuss this matter because we accept that we are all concerned about the world's ongoing, considerable, dreadful victimisation of children and women. I want our daughters, and all other women, not to have to exprience the shite I grew up with. I hope that women with concerns will understand that I have acknowledged the victimisation women experience – it is why, after a fairly successful career in construction, I became a lowly academic lawyer (don't worry, I am not that lowly any longer).

I do acknowledge that women are justified in fearing potential new ways of their victimisation by men's violence, and that the concerns expressed about any proposed legal change cannot be pushed aside.

In return however, I hope that whatever generosity of spirit I give in my willingness to engage, will be responded to by giving what I write in relation to the questions, your serious and open-minded consideration.

If persuaded, I would hope that you would have a willingness to acknowledge you have been persuaded. And I promise I will; do the same.
If not persuaded, then I would hope any response is also done with a similar spirit . I have no need of further enemies.

Stephen

Admittedly I didn't read all of the OP but I'm curious about what age group those trans men are.

I've found that in general, trans men are on Tumblr (a female dominated blogging website), and trans women are on Reddit (a male dominated forum website).

I've read some blogs by trans men who describe themselves as 'invisible'. Many write about abuse they have experienced at the hands of men, and being discouraged from 'boy stuff' at a young age, which I find very relatable.

I can think of 2 trans men who are possibly deemed famous- Chaz Bono and there was someone on Eastenders. There is no widely known politician, actor, musician, campaigner, journalist, presenter, author, designer, sex worker etc. who is a trans man. The face of the trans community is a trans woman. Trans 'lesbians' (bio men who are attracted to women) specifically dominate the community. Trans men have no representation.

I'm confused, 1955Stephen - are you and Stephen1955 the same poster with slightly different names (or do I have an even shorter short-term memory than I'd thought, and have simply swapped half a user name)?

For my part, no problem at all with calling you a transman. It's the blooming Transwomen Are Women/Transmen Are Men bit I have trouble with, because it makes me stop listening in favour of thinking 'no, no you're not, why not just be who you are?'

Also, Stephen, if you don't mind my asking, do you have Asperger's? It's something in the writing style that's astonishingly like my brother's.

Stephen Whittle, did not say he didn't know his children's names.
He said he could never remember the names of his children's friends - or to put it more accurately, he is not great at remembering which of the lads who play football are called Jules or Jasper, or which of the many long haired girls who hand around the house, are called Hannah, or Emma, or Annie, or Ellie.

He does have a small excuse, he has MS and has consequently become 'face blind'' amongst other things.

So if you meet him, he will say, "next time we meet , please tell me your name. You will look familiar, but until I have you voice, you will remain 'just familiar.' "

Prosopagnosia? Yay! My excuse for... quite a lot of things, actually. Apparently some sheep are better than I am at recognising people.

(They're all called Ellie. Hope that helps.)

The transmen I've come across have often either been abused as young women and thus hated their bodies or had low self confidence and envied man's social confidence and hidden their female body in layers of fat. Transmen seem less inclined to look like hypersexualised men and enter the porn and entertainment industry in the way some transwomen do.
My main concern about the legislation is not just to do with victimisation of women and children but the way language is being used and that terms such as women and female are being appropriated by transwomen who want to see themselves as women whilst also seeming to hate us and wanting any reference to the biology of women ie what really makes us women expunged.
Transmen seem to hate men less than transwomen hate women, or maybe it's more that transmen don't have as many shit stirring activists.

To answer Langcleg - These are my mates, with whom I have been 'hanging about' , going on holiday, drinking beers, having meals, comparing surgeries, examining the law, etc. for well over 20 years.
So yes, they are an older group - but that's why I think their participation could be very useful, as they do not come to these issues afresh with the (often bullheaded) enthusiastic re-inventing the wheel that young trans activists do.

As I said upthread, I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on the questions you raise, and to engage with them in good faith, although with no guarantee of agreement

Pencilsinspace - to answer your questions;

1. Where are their demands to be in male spaces? (I realise lots of transmen pass very well anyway but lots don't)

Trans men don't have to make those demands, male space is given to us.

1. Where are the transmen being championed in politics?

There are some; Charlie Kiss, Mark Rees - but older guys have chosen not to be engaged in politics, in the past, because we would have been completely trashed by the media. it is a place for the younger guys to claim.

1. Why are transmen only in the news when they've had a baby or been raped?

If a trans guy has a baby, the press doorstep them, endlessly. Lots don't know how to control that (you have to offer an exclusive to another sector of the press, so end up in there anyway). In 1992, when my wife had a baby we were chased down the street by cameramen shooting my backside!!! And it was in the Sunday newspapers.
Other's decide to keep some control , by telling their story their way.
As for rape, I must admit I have never seen a rape story in the press about a trans man.
Trans men usually choose to keep that very private, because it has felt so humiliating. I can encourage them to report these crimes, but I am then obliged to help them retain their privacy.
Interestingly the press only want the stories if they can name us once and then name us twice by giving our previous names. That doesn't feel that great. And it is an additional crime against our being - You take my body now you think you can take my identity as well.
The law says that ALL victims of rape, or sexual assault are absolutely entitled to privacy as concerns their identity.

Okay Stephen, I'll take you at your word and welcome a genuine dialogue.

My question:
Do you believe that women and girls have a right to single-sex spaces? For clarity, I mean a distinction based on biological sex, not gender identity.

Such single-sex spaces can (and should) exist alongside unisex spaces; the "third space" solution.

I would be interested in your perspective as a transman because until now I've only encountered transwomen's views on the third space solution (typically old-skool transsexuals if they support it, and typically new penis-retaining transactivists if they vehemently oppose it).

As I said upthread, I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on the questions you raise, and to engage with them in good faith, although with no guarantee of agreement.

Me too.

So yes, they are an older group - but that's why I think their participation could be very useful, as they do not come to these issues afresh with the (often bullheaded) enthusiastic re-inventing the wheel that young trans activists do.

Yes, I am interested in the experiences of females who are trans. As I said earlier, it seems to me that sexism means the narrative is dominated by or about males who are trans (both because of male socialisation and the concerns women have over protections and safeguarding).

Stephen - do you think there is an element of social contagion in young females wanting to transition? If so, how do you propose clinicians work towards identifying those who would benefit from transition and those who would not?

Stephen thank you, I can see some serious thought has gone into your last couple of posts and I hope you stick around.

From your previous posts I got the impression you weren't taking MN posters seriously. I suspect you were 'put up' to post here in the first place. I'm aware you have health issues and are not as active as you once were.

There's a reason you're here though. It's because this is where the debate is happening. I cannot overestimate my gratitude to @MNHQ for allowing the debate to happen here or for moderating it so well.

I've got a lot more to say but it will be Friday before I have time. For now I would say it's not enough to 'acknowledge', 'explain' or tell us what you 'believe'.

You need to listen

I have tremendous respect for the amount of knowledge and experience you have accumulated but I don't believe you fully understand what's happening right now, on the ground. The women here know what's happening.

To be fair and honest to all, I will 'out' myself, I am Stephen Whittle – not the now-deceased Landscape painter, nor the convicted racist, nor the ex-controller of BBC Radio.
I am the one who teaches law.

I do action-research in which I campaign for respect and equality for LGBT people, people with disabilities, older people, children, women, and those people who are Dalit.
I do all sorts of training, teaching, and expert witness work etc. as part of my research.
I will do my very best to not just listen, but to hear what is being said.

In return, PLEASE do me a favour, and lets have this conversation before someone tells Rod Liddle to do a hatchet job on me.
if you want to know more, there is lots about me on my University site, and Wikipedia etc.
I chose to join MN initially to read what was being said, and I decided to write after my name was mentioned.

I am not, per se, against the concerns raised. Those same concerns were raised 4 years ago when the Gender Recognition Act was being drafted. And we spent some time then thinking about how to address them.
But I do think 'how' some people have spoken about trans folk,, particularly trans women, has been very provocative. The flames have, sadly, been stoked on both sides.

As I said in an earlier post, the trans women who are victimised in these processes are part of our community, and many are my friends. They have too often had to be the street fighters of our community. That it is more difficult for some trans women to be ‘read’ as women in the early years of her transition, has meant too often, literally, they have been fighting for their lives.

Most of the older generation of trans folk do not participate publicly, by being ‘out’, because it just costs too much. An exception is Christine Burns; she like I decided long ago to sacrifice our personal privacy to make a better life for the next generation. Another is Emily Brothers (www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jan/03/emily-brothers-labours-first-transgender-candidate-interview) who was a candidate in the last election. As a blind candidate, she really didn’t also want to become the blind transgender candidate, but in the end she realised that she either didn’t stand, or she came out, because if she stood without coming out, she would instead be outed by the local press. That cost her a lot.

I have always worked by making friends, and not by making enemies.

I try hard not be confrontational because it diminishes all our voices.
My passions are my family, the rule of law, justice, peace, and the idea that all should have the opportunity for a fulfilled life.

I do not think equality is the same as liberation, but it might just be a step along the way.

You may think that sounds really 'soppy' - it isn't. I have always been the most reasonable of anarchists on the inside. I challenge by thinking the unthinkable, in order to find answers.

My heroes are those in the many different anti-racism movements who put their lives on the line for the right of all to be free, equal and respected.

I am about to go to bed, I won’t write tomorrow as I have a full workload. But I will read and try to write more over the weekend. Then I will be taking a break of about ten days, as I will be travelling with my partner in India; part lecturing advocates, part research, and a couple of days break. Back on the 20th April, I will try and add to this discussion, but in the meantime, I will endeavour to read everything that you write.

erratum: I am not, per se, against the concerns raised. Those same concerns were raised 14 years ago when the Gender Recognition Act was being drafted. And we spent some time then thinking about how to address them.

I suspect there aren’t many and are outnumbered by trans ‘women’ by a factor of 20:1

Hi Stephen

I’m very interested to hear about whether you consider the use of the single sex exemptions in the Equality Act to be at all workable?

I’m concerned that many organisations appear to be scared to invoke them and have not put any screening/ safe guarding in place to protect vulnerable women and children.

I’m further worried that legal womanhood status conferred by a self declaratory GRC makes it neigh on impossible for an organisation to invoke the exemptions.

I’m sympathetic to transwomen feeling ostracised by the third space option but since the Equality Act definition of transwomen is easily infiltrated by predators what is the best solution in your view?

Most men wouldn’t bat an eyelid at woman / trans man invading the gents or male changing rooms but then again they wouldn’t really pose a threat in the same way. People at most would snigger and then they’d probably feel uncomfortable and not make a big fuss

I am not, per se, against the concerns raised. Those same concerns were raised 14 years ago when the Gender Recognition Act was being drafted. And we spent some time then thinking about how to address them.

I would wager that the way to address them was to have some degree of 'gatekeeping'. The very same 'gatekeeping' thats being proposed to be removed now, meanwhile businesses are adapting the ridiculous 'self ID' model and putting women at risk.

If all 'gatekeeping' is removed from the GRC process, GRCs become utterly meaningless tbh.

Hi Stephen. Really glad to have you here. I saw you on the CBBC programme where you offered support to the lovely Leo. I watched it hoping you would find your way here and chat with us. I'm interested in what you have to say.

I think what I'd like to ask you is are you aware how threatened a lot of women feel at the moment because of how vocal and aggressive some Trans Rights Activists are? I'm not on Twitter but when I dip my toes in there, I see Trans women telling women to suck their dick, to die in a fire and that we are literally murdering them by misgendering them. It is frightening and intimidating as I am sure it is meant to be. I have gone from blindly supporting all trans people on the basis that they are horribly oppressed, to feeling extremely wary of all but a small number of trans people who are the ones actually experiencing true gender dysphoria. I have seen evidence of some actually being autogynophiles and it has sickened me. (As one example I read a trans forum where a man said he had transitioned to being a woman after years of having fantasies involving women being violently raped by multiple strangers, He had an epiphany when he realised he wanted to be the woman getting all the action, so to speak)

Do you understand how important sex segregation is to the well-being and safety of many women?

Does it concern you that so many more young girls are suddenly seemingly experiencing gender dysphoria? Do you see a link with abuse and/or autism in this situation?

Do you understand how it feels quite manipulative that stats regarding suicidal feelings in trans youth are being thrown around by many TRA's, despite this going against guidelines which have been drafted to keep impressionable people safe?

Thank you.