A very insightful article by Debbie Hayton

[Tackytriceratops]

I feel this needs its own thread.

I'm still absorbing what she's written. I think its very brave and has some key points.

Thank you Debbie

quillette.com/2018/03/30/plea-trans-activists-can-protect-trans-rights-without-denying-biology/

As a teacher, I know the likely result when you try and force someone to believe something: grudging compliance, and only while you are watching. As soon as your back is turned, there is disrespect and defiance.

Exactly.

Debbie is a wonderful voice of compassion and reason on this subject.

It is a really interesting article. I wish those kind of voices could be heard more often.

Very good. Thank you Debbie.

Interesting article. It's always good to hear a sane argument from the other side.

This article is excellent.

Clear, calm, compassionate and very, very well put. I particularly like the point about 'this is not the way to build trust between women and transwomen'.

Because those who would disagree with this piece would do so on the grounds of 'we're coming in because it's our right and if you feel unsafe/invaded/erased, stuff you, you deserve to lose your space and you're a vile person who shouldn't have a voice or rights'. There is nothing ok about that attitude.

Thank you Debbie for an excellent article.

Champion I did wonder if that was a typo (and that 'not' was accidental) as otherwise it's at odds with the tone of the rest of the article (being 'blind to sexism' isn't a good thing).

I just read Debbie's article, what a relief to hear a voice of reason!
Thank you Debbie

Given her history though, I guess this simply isn’t an experience that she’s had to even consider

Trans people face discrimination too. Especially in the job market.

Yes. but no one is going to look at a transwoman and think that there's a chance of them going on maternity leave (they are also unlikely to assume that the transwoman will be the one to take time off with sick kids if they are a parent)

they are also unlikely to assume that the transwoman will be the one to take time off with sick kids if they are a parent

Attitudes need to change so an employer looks at any candidate and assumes that they will take time off to look after sick kids if they are a parent, regardless of who they are.

Champion I did wonder if that was a typo (and that 'not' was accidental) as otherwise it's at odds with the tone of the rest of the article (being 'blind to sexism' isn't a good thing).

Me too. I think that's an editing fail because I've seen Debbie defend collection of data by sex as vitally important many times.

They do, definitely. But right now one of the reason women of childbearing age are discriminated against when it comes to jobs is definitely their ability to birth children and the assumptions that come with that.

"Attitudes need to change so an employer looks at any candidate and assumes that they will take time off to look after sick kids if they are a parent, regardless of who they are."

Well, yeeeessssssss

That's not how it is though, despite decades of women fighting for things that will help with that (and getting very little interest / support from male parents).

It's always good to hear a sane argument from the other side.

Debbie Hayton isn't 'the other side'. We are on the same side - that of shared humanity and adherence to rational, objective thinking, versus divisive pomo-addled bullying.

You will find that what Debbie Hayton is saying is the view of a lot of transsexual women out there who are not the ones asking to self declare that you are a woman or that this should be removed from being a medical matter.

If you are like this then self evidently you need to be assessed that way. It is common sense.

Those of us who have been there know that and seem to be increasingly willing to say so.

Which is not easy as most of us have lived quiet lives possibly for decades are not activists or demanding anything other than to get on with being ourselves and contributing to society just like Debbie is doing.

We are all reasonable people , perhaps removing the handle TERF might make things go smoother ? its as if you are up for a fight !

my daughter and many women turn off MN as some people want to turn every thread into the same boring thread

stop attacking elderly quiet women with a certain past, who probably live next door to you and have done so for donkeys years

stop attacking elderly quiet women with a certain past, who probably live next door to you and have done so for donkeys years

Like Debbie Hayton, who this thread is applauding?

(Not that she's elderly ... and she's not quiet, but I believe would have preferred to be, but for the TRAs)

my daughter and many women turn off MN as some people want to turn every thread into the same boring thread

You turn off the whole of Mumsnet because less than 1% of it, the feminist board, has threads you don't like? Your loss.

stop attacking elderly quiet women with a certain past, who probably live next door to you and have done so for donkeys years

Nobody's attacking elderly quiet TIMs, who probably haven't lived next door to you for donkeys years because a) there are only about 5,000 of them in the whole country, and b) they're not the ones trying to change the law so that women's safe spaces and the safeguarding of children no longer exist.

1/10 for effort.