A very insightful article by Debbie Hayton

[Tackytriceratops]

I feel this needs its own thread.

I'm still absorbing what she's written. I think its very brave and has some key points.

Thank you Debbie

quillette.com/2018/03/30/plea-trans-activists-can-protect-trans-rights-without-denying-biology/

[Daff0dil]

There is a such a crying need for nuance and respect in matters of sex/gender. Thank you so much Debbie for such a powerful and eloquent piece of writing... I keep re-reading it and finding more there that's so important to consider.

[Floisme]

Debbie thank you for that article and thank you for posting on here.

[OohMavis]

Excellent article, beautifully written. We need more of this.

[SophoclesTheFox]

I also love the concept of "identifying with" to replace "identifying as". It really highlights the importance of not just the individual's needs and feelings, but the needs of others. Often sadly lacking in transactivism.

Thanks, debbie. Important stuff.

as to the point that trans people get abuse if they stand up to transactivism, you'll forgive me if I greet that with a shrug, because that is exactly what happens to women.

[invisibleoldwoman]

Thank you Debbie.

[LangCleg]

Worryingly, concerns about the impact on women went unaddressed, and Gender Identity was left undefined. That was perhaps unsurprising as attempts by other jurisdictions to pin down Gender Identity have been less than satisfactory. For example, the State of Massachusetts defined it as: “a person’s gender-related identity, appearance or behavior, whether or not that gender-related identity or behavior is different from that traditionally associated with the person’s physiology or assigned sex at birth.” Which, to me, is a conflation of circular reasoning and sexist stereotyping.

Just wanted to say that I also very much like this paragraph from your article, Debbie.

Another MNer was making this vital point on another thread yesterday. How can good law be based on a term which has not been defined in an objective way that can be tested in the courts?

[mirialis]

That was such a good read and a timely one. The shouty TRAs 'peak transing' people are in danger of pushing some towards actual transphobia (i.e. dislike of transpeople rather than disbelief that a woman is anyone who says they are a woman) and it's such a good article to be able to direct people towards to say, no, this is not a dislike of transpeople, it's about self-ID and all the excellent points you've made Debbie, in your perfectly pitched way. I will be sharing this article many times I'm sure.

Paris Lees keeps saying it's unfair to have media debates without pro-trans feminists to balance things (and the latest QT debate showed how little PL was fussed about true balance) and I really wish we had more of you in these debates. When Hadley said in her article that we need to find a way to work this out, women and transwomen, your article is exactly the reason why I felt that was right.

Thank you

[TheGoldenBough]

That was fab, Debbie. A really good read and totally agree with it.

Identifying with women is something I am totally on board with.

All though spouting identifying as are talking a nonsense.

Trite Comparison Alert:

I can identify with cats - there's a lot about cats I admire and covet. I like my own space, I only want to be with others when it suits me, I don't suffer fools gladly and I like to nap whenever I can. If I could be any other species, I'd be a cat.

If I said I identified as a cat well, frankly, I'd sound a bit of a twat.

[claraschu]

TerfsUp when you identify Debbie as being "on the other side" you become part of the problem. Then your MN name looks like it is also part of the problem, rather than a response to prejudice.

[OpalIridescence]

I was at the WPUK Birmingham and saw you speak Debbie.
I appreciated the emphasis you placed on invitation by women around you.

I also liked the way you described identifying with women, I thought it dealt with reality and personal truth elegantly.

[ChattyLion]

Hi Debbie. I really appreciated reading your perspective and insight.

[Doobigetta]

Debbie, I agree with every word of your article, and it articulates some thoughts I hadn't quite arrived at yet but that I think are important. Thank you

[dorothyparka]

Thanks Debbie

[ReappearingWoman]

Another 👏👏👏 from me Debbie. Genuinely appreciate your contributions on this. Great article. 👍I don't want to presume to speak for all here but I don't think anyone here has just mere tolerance for you (and other trans people) standing with women- there's warm & genuine acceptance for you as you are, and appreciation for your thoughts on this. Thank you.

[waterlego6064]

Debbie, thank you for your excellent article. You articulate so clearly what I think, much more eloquently than I ever could.

In particular, this line really struck a chord ‘acceptance comes not from legislation, but from relationships’.

Thank you again for being brave enough to speak out. 💐

[ErrolTheDragon]

Thanks Debbie, for being a clear voice of sanity in these strange times.

[DebbieInBirmingham]

Thanks again for the kind words, but I'm just another person trying to make sense of things.

I'm pleased that the editor has now removed that word "not" and put back in the two lines of computer code that got a few laughs at the Birmingham WPUK meeting.

(This piece was cobbled together from the speech I gave in Birmingham.)

[Tackytriceratops]

Thank you again Debbie, I do hope one day to meet you. I can imagine it's not easy to stand up against the tide, but your clear, sensible reasonings are what we all need.

[DodoPatrol]

I was about to come on here and say I wanted to bloody hug Debbie for writing that.

The you came on the thread yourself. May I offer a slightly embarrassed pat on the back? And can I quote you to my tedious 'woke' teenagers?

[BoreOfWhabylon]

Excellent article. Thank you Debbie

[yetanothertranswoman]

I worry that the debate has become so polarised and reduced to soundbites that the opportunity for real, constructive discussion is being eroded

This - the entire debate is polarised and full of soundbites. I also worry about how much hijacking of this debate is going on.

It is tough speaking out as a transwoman. Put your head above the parapets and you become a target.

Trans voices who have issues with what's going on aren't heard very much. It was good to read that article, Debbie, and I applaud you for putting your name to it.

[SunsetBeetch]

Oh welcome to mumsnet Debbie

[lenaperkins]

Thank you Debbie. You sound like a great role model for the kids you teach - I wish you taught mine! Feel almost teary reading it. My view is self-ID is bad for women - and trans.

[DarthArts]

Another one to say great article Debbie.

I worry that the debate has become so polarised and reduced to soundbites that the opportunity for real, constructive discussion is being eroded.

The only winners in that scenario are actually the woke brocalists that Hadley highlighted in her article today.

[TerfsUp]

waves to Debbie