A very insightful article by Debbie Hayton

[Tackytriceratops]

I feel this needs its own thread.

I'm still absorbing what she's written. I think its very brave and has some key points.

Thank you Debbie

quillette.com/2018/03/30/plea-trans-activists-can-protect-trans-rights-without-denying-biology/

Did you post on the right thread everlasting?

Yeah I'm confused by everlasting's post

Articles like this restore my faith that intelligent debate may be possible. Thank you for posting op.

This is beautiful;

To say that trans women are the same as women, therefore requires denial of some rather huge concrete truths. I can’t do that with any integrity and, rather than identify as a woman, – a rather meaningless concept – I identify with women.

More of this, please. Couldn't be further from cis-hatred.

perhaps removing the handle TERF might make things go smoother

Turf is a handle? I thought it was a slur used by TRAs to insult those of us who are gender critical.

What do you mean, @everlasting?

Thank you so much for the supportive comments in this thread. I really appreciate them. I get so upset about the situition that has blown up through - yes - a lack of critical thinking.

Those of you who questioned that word "not" are quite right. I didn't want it there. My argument is that service providers should monitor sex just like they monitor race and disability, etc for equal opps. What I'm less happy about is them defining us by our sex.

Debbie (author)

waves to Debbie

Another one to say great article Debbie.

I worry that the debate has become so polarised and reduced to soundbites that the opportunity for real, constructive discussion is being eroded.

The only winners in that scenario are actually the woke brocalists that Hadley highlighted in her article today.

Thank you Debbie. You sound like a great role model for the kids you teach - I wish you taught mine! Feel almost teary reading it. My view is self-ID is bad for women - and trans.

Oh welcome to mumsnet Debbie

I worry that the debate has become so polarised and reduced to soundbites that the opportunity for real, constructive discussion is being eroded

This - the entire debate is polarised and full of soundbites. I also worry about how much hijacking of this debate is going on.

It is tough speaking out as a transwoman. Put your head above the parapets and you become a target.

Trans voices who have issues with what's going on aren't heard very much. It was good to read that article, Debbie, and I applaud you for putting your name to it.

Excellent article. Thank you Debbie

I was about to come on here and say I wanted to bloody hug Debbie for writing that.

The you came on the thread yourself. May I offer a slightly embarrassed pat on the back? And can I quote you to my tedious 'woke' teenagers?

Thank you again Debbie, I do hope one day to meet you. I can imagine it's not easy to stand up against the tide, but your clear, sensible reasonings are what we all need.

Thanks again for the kind words, but I'm just another person trying to make sense of things.

I'm pleased that the editor has now removed that word "not" and put back in the two lines of computer code that got a few laughs at the Birmingham WPUK meeting.

(This piece was cobbled together from the speech I gave in Birmingham.)

Thanks Debbie, for being a clear voice of sanity in these strange times.

Debbie, thank you for your excellent article. You articulate so clearly what I think, much more eloquently than I ever could.

In particular, this line really struck a chord ‘acceptance comes not from legislation, but from relationships’.

Thank you again for being brave enough to speak out. 💐

Another 👏👏👏 from me Debbie. Genuinely appreciate your contributions on this. Great article. 👍I don't want to presume to speak for all here but I don't think anyone here has just mere tolerance for you (and other trans people) standing with women- there's warm & genuine acceptance for you as you are, and appreciation for your thoughts on this. Thank you.

Thanks Debbie

Debbie, I agree with every word of your article, and it articulates some thoughts I hadn't quite arrived at yet but that I think are important. Thank you

Hi Debbie. I really appreciated reading your perspective and insight.

I was at the WPUK Birmingham and saw you speak Debbie.
I appreciated the emphasis you placed on invitation by women around you.

I also liked the way you described identifying with women, I thought it dealt with reality and personal truth elegantly.

TerfsUp when you identify Debbie as being "on the other side" you become part of the problem. Then your MN name looks like it is also part of the problem, rather than a response to prejudice.

That was fab, Debbie. A really good read and totally agree with it.

Identifying with women is something I am totally on board with.

All though spouting identifying as are talking a nonsense.

Trite Comparison Alert:

I can identify with cats - there's a lot about cats I admire and covet. I like my own space, I only want to be with others when it suits me, I don't suffer fools gladly and I like to nap whenever I can. If I could be any other species, I'd be a cat.

If I said I identified as a cat well, frankly, I'd sound a bit of a twat.

That was such a good read and a timely one. The shouty TRAs 'peak transing' people are in danger of pushing some towards actual transphobia (i.e. dislike of transpeople rather than disbelief that a woman is anyone who says they are a woman) and it's such a good article to be able to direct people towards to say, no, this is not a dislike of transpeople, it's about self-ID and all the excellent points you've made Debbie, in your perfectly pitched way. I will be sharing this article many times I'm sure.

Paris Lees keeps saying it's unfair to have media debates without pro-trans feminists to balance things (and the latest QT debate showed how little PL was fussed about true balance) and I really wish we had more of you in these debates. When Hadley said in her article that we need to find a way to work this out, women and transwomen, your article is exactly the reason why I felt that was right.

Thank you