Guardian and manfriday! Finally, thanks Hadley!

[Tackytriceratops]

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/mar/31/man-explains-what-means-be-woman?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

Whoop!

I'm pretty sure Hadley's here

Oh, he's been paying attention.

He's the one that's been telling women to shut up for months now with his #nodebate stance.

And now he's denying that ever happened. And painting himself as the victim.

I don't do twitter or Facebook (or read the Guardian) but what I find shocking is that, apparently, an article that is actually really mildly saying " this is affecting women and women need to be able to discuss it" is getting complained about by men!
Just how much men cannot stand to be told that we don't need their opinion or approval right now is pretty shocking.
And I 100% agree that the issue is no longer between women and transwomen. It used to be, before the madness, but now it's entirely up to men to make space for these different kind of men.

Which of course they don't want to..

Very well done, Hadley Freeman! Couldn't believe what I was reading - in the Guardian!!
An excellent summary of the current situation. Many many thanks,

I did suspect Hadley was on these threads and knew it was only a matter of time before she spoke out.

I think there's more mileage in this, I hope she's able to keep writing about this.

Thank you, Hadley

I hope you do read this thread Hadley and on the chance that you are - THANK YOU. I agree with every word, including the fact that we have to work something out, and LOVE the fact you made this about woke bros. I have a particular woke bro of my own who has just been sent this article after an argument during which he called me a bigot, "transwomen are women" blah, blah but, no, he wouldn't actually have sex with one of course...

Janice Turner has been writing great stuff in The Times and the fact you've now taken this to The Guardian where the woke bros can't avoid it is absolutely brilliant.

Thought the piece on anti-semitism was also excellent.

Wish I was brave enough to post this excellent article on my facebook and twitter. Keep going Hadley.

IfNot: "I don't do twitter or Facebook (or read the Guardian) but what I find shocking is that, apparently, an article that is actually really mildly saying " this is affecting women and women need to be able to discuss it" is getting complained about by men! "

I no longer have any expectations that men will understand or show sympathy with the concerns of women. The young man who published that excellent post on Medium was a rare example. What I find shocking is the number of women on Facebook and Twitter who seem to have drunk the Kool-Aid, including those saying the Guardian should be reported to IPSO etc. It's never enough for these people to say they don't agree with an opinion. They immediately want to close down free speech.

Thank you Hadley

I knew if anyone could express this clearly to the mainstream (Left) it could be you

Why should women have to work anything out with transwomen? Transwomen are men. Men should be working out how to balance their needs amongst themselves.

I suspect Hadley had to put in that part to get it past the editors or whatever

Amazing that she has managed to get a GC piece in the guardian.

LOJ throwing the toys out of the pram yet again and painting himself as the victim is laughable.

Thank you Hadley (if you are here). I have been through attempted tape twice (managed to get away twice thank God). I am sick of people telling me that my biology doesn't matter - of course people with male bodies can be raped too, but it doesn't happen anything like as often. I have also worked in women's refuges and those women - well, they didn't get away for years. I am all for being kind and tolerant of difference - that doesn't mean I am ok about being told to shut up about what I, and others with a similar physiology, need. It's crap. Biology matters and so does physical vulnerability

I guess you are right hackmum. I have certainly noticed that men seem to be very concerned with the safety and comfort of transwomen. Women's safety and comfort-not so much.
I don't understand the female cheerleaders of self Id either-once you understand the implications it seems just contrary for the sake of it to keep saying "transwomen are women". It's got to be some kind of syndrome, like wanting to be on the side of the victors. Collaboration.
It is so depressing to grow up feeling pretty cynical about men, only to realise that they respect us even less than I thought.
I hope this Hadley Freeman person keeps writing about this anyway, and thank you Hadley for being brave enough to state a very mild and reasonable opinion in this mad mad world!

And I LOVE the ManFriday women. Massive kudos for doing something truly brave xxx

Right now I'm ok with Hadley framing it as being between us women and TIMs because I believe her point here is that if these brocialists and liberal men truly thought TWAW, they'd realise it's then not their place to butt in. It'd be "women's business", and they probably wouldn't even care to know what two groups of "women" were "bickering" about.

I think she's highlighting the fact that despite their chant of "trans women are women", these men are wading into the issue exactly because they know TIMs are men. So they're slurring us as "Terfs!" because they're furious at women refusing to give up privacy, safety and rights, to perform our expected nurturing duties for their "vulnerable", less masc-performing brothers.

Was so so happy when I read that article today, thank you Hadley. To think that our biology doesn't matter is ludicrous. Our biology is the very reason we have been oppressed for a bloody millenia!

I saw a tweet too about how the Guardian will have 'blood on its hands' after this.

Seriously fuck off. I would have far more sympathy if this whole 'if you don't do exactly what I want, and think exactly as I think, then I will kill myself/YOU will be directly responsible for whatever happens to me' crap wasn't so reminiscent of the behaviour of abusive, gaslighting men. Its just classic behaviour.

wasn't so reminiscent of the behaviour of abusive, gaslighting men

It really is, isn't it? Been there, done that, got the (miserable) t-shirt.

I have certainly noticed that men seem to be very concerned with the safety and comfort of transwomen. Women's safety and comfort-not so much.

Indeed. It’s also noticeable that their concerns about transwomen’s safety don’t include their safety in male spaces. They’re quick to agree that transwomen will get attacked in the Gents, but just want to wash their hands of male violence/ transphobia, rather than doing something about it.

Why aren’t the woke lefty dude bros campaigning for men to accept transwomen? Where are the posters in the Gents saying ‘This is a Safe Space for gender non conforming men’?

Do you remember the ‘I’ll ride with you’ thing, where people offered to accompany those in Muslim dress on public transport, if they were scared of being targeted after Islamist terrorist attacks? Why aren’t the woke lefty dude bros starting an ‘I’ll piss with you’ or ‘I’ll undress with you’ campaign if they are so concerned with transphobia in men’s facilities then?

Oh that’s right. Male violence in men’s facilities is women’s fault. How could I forget that?

"I saw a tweet too about how the Guardian will have 'blood on its hands' after this."

It's relentlessly over the top, isn't it? All the time. So a feminist journalist on the Guardian writes a sensible, moderately-worded piece on the need to discuss the problems with self-ID rationally, and suddenly the Guardian becomes responsible for future violent attacks on trans people. Because, as we know, the one thing that violent men have in common is that they're loyal readers of the Guardian.

How would they react to a piece of writing that was genuinely inflammatory? They'd have nowhere to go. It's very much a case of the boy who cried wolf - over and over again.

Hadley, you are FUCKING BRILLIANT.

I'm afraid i'm boycotting The Graun these days and I wish you'd jump ship and leave the 'woke bros' to it because you deserve to be published in a better quality newspaper. An actual real fucking journalist. Hats off to you.

I think that is important to understand that there are some Twitter accounts that represent the views of people who are transgender and have experienced horrific and transphobic treatment. There are also people who are transgender with accounts who have been manipulated by some TRAs into believing that that their very existence is currently under attack. There are people with good intentions who have been unaware of the bigger picture and are motivated by reducing discrimination and protecting the human rights of all .Finally there are some accounts willfully intending to troll / goad, attack and manipulate for a range of intentions.
It is really important to be aware of these distinctions, and to be considered in online responses as these are easily used to stoke both fears and loathing, to maintain the polarisation and to legitimise the #nodebate.

I also love, btw, that you worked Leanne Wood's absurd phrase 'outdated ideas of biology' (?!) into the article without attacking her for her lack of basic grasp of science. Very dignified of you and I reckon most will get the point without you spelling it out.

I'm talking to you as if you are on this thread but i'm 100% sure you are a MNetter

Hadley Freeman, you are woman and I hear your roar!

And a hello as well to anyone checking out Mumsnet's feminism boards after reading about it in Hadley's article!

(Got to love the abuse MN is getting on social media at the moment for being such an awful hive of the wrong kind of feminism. "It was fine when we could dismiss you as unimportant middle-class Nappy Valley mummies all wittering on about Boden all day, but now we've learnt you want more than potty training tips we can't let that stand! BACK IN YOUR BOX, WOMEN.")

I bought a print Guarduan today for the first time for months, and cheered when I read this! Excellent article, Hadley. Thank you for being brave enough to write it, and savvy enough to write it so brilliantly.

I think it's best to stay away from Twitter altogether..This whole thing feels like something that really only existed on social media, driven by fetishists, angry men and kids who still believe in unicorns, and worked it's way by stealth via the tortuous social angst of the ultra pc into the actual policies of real life organisations .
But its not real! I mean, people with gender dysphoria are real, and have always been around, but nobody in real life (I'm talking actual real life not Islington real life)believes the some geezer with a beard in lipstick is actually female.
The only reason the average person isn't up in arms about self id is because they don't know that people who think Twitter is real life are busy making up insane rules that will affect all women, and the reason they don't know about it is because sane people are so often not allowed to talk about it in the press or at work!

That's why this article is good, because its in a relatively mainstream news source, and it's calm and rational.
The more the newspapers and the BBC etc allow rationality a voice the quicker the penny will drop for most people. I hope.