I WILL tell my daughter to moderate her behaviour...

[NotTakenUsername]

Because this land does not protect her otherwise.
I will advise that she should not attend a party with multiple men who think nothing of referring to women as a group of sluts or texting a mate to ask if there is any chance of a threesome.
I will ask her to consider what she wears and the impression she might inadvertently give off. I will strongly advise that a VPL is far preferable to the things that could be insinuated if she chooses to go underwear free.
I will ask her to take the long walk home to avoid being alone in a dimly lit area. I will inconvenience myself daily to collect her if that is safer still.
I will warn her of the reputation she may find hard to shake, if she has too many sexual partners.
I will teach her that men lie to get what they want.
I don’t care if this makes me a shit feminist or worse still a chauvinist.
She is my daughter and I love her and I must protect her from this world that is so perversely weighted towards men at the expense of women.
I’m appalled, but not surprised.
I give up.

I think I get what wordtothewise is saying and I don't see that it's victim blaming any more than the advice to wear more modest clothing and not have too many sexual partners.

In fact, it's advice I would be more comfortable giving to my 19 year old because it shifts the responsibility from her (don't go out without underwear - a jury would jump on that. Don't have too many sexual partners - a jury would dismiss you as a slut) to the men. Be wary of arrogance and status - it's likely to make someone feel above the law, is a message she's more likely to take on board. Especially when the evidence suggests that it actually does make men legally untouchable.

nottakenusername thank you for your posts.

I was up all last night thinking about the case.

I was thinking about the victim.

I was thinking of her strength in reporting that Barrister and I was thinking of her family.

I was thinking how she has had her anonymity breached. I was thinking about how her body was explicitly dissected as though she was a mere object without feelings or injuries.

I was thinking of my children and how I stop them becoming misogynistic.

I was thinking of how my sons love running with the ball, the team aspect, bouncing around feeling they are strong and powerful already. Has it already started? Do they already think they are superior?

Would they join the first 15? Would they drink and go to parties and would they carry out despicable acts - anyone remember Chris Hemming speaking about rugby culture and one time he was under peer pressure to cover the next female who entered the bar area with beer and he did that. He poured beer over an unsuspecting women.

It had to be pointed out to him that this was assault

Ulster Rugby has a rape culture.

I am interested in how these men will be treated by their rugby teams.

Will they just reinforce their rape culture by welcoming them back with open arms? Will these players you know the ones who speak about spit roasting and whores be able to represent their country?

I saw last night how some rugby players were on twitter saying that it is great news that they were found not guilty. They were celebrating.

Yep I don't want to go near rugby again and I never thought I would say t - I actually love the game too but not at the expense of women. Not at the expense of bringing up my boys to not give a flying fuck. Not at the expense of my sons not being able to deal with their emotions or have positive relationships.

I don't want my children to think they can rape. I don't want them to dehumanise a woman and overpower her and then think it is fine to brag about it and then hide / delete messages when the Police are involved.

I don't want them to think I would ever go to court and support them if they did this.

I don't want them to think that there mummy and daddy would cover their legal fees if they spoke about women as whores and spit roasting.

I

HomeTerf The whole point of this thread is that all of the advice in my original post was in fact victim blaming, but nonetheless advice I will give. I will caveat this advice with, you shouldn’t have to, but...

The tone of wordtothemise’s post is markedly different.

This is what I've been telling my little sister for years. She's been raped twice and still won't compromise her ideals - she wears short skirts, gets incredibly drunk and meets up with random men... I'm not victim blaming at all, but I just wish she'd make some changes to make herself safer.

But lorelai you’re implying she was raped because of her behaviour, so you are victim blaming. She was raped because she was raped by an evil person.

It is the random men

The fact rape is accepted just as domestic violence is accepted just as porn is accepted

Rugby culture is rape culture

Grandmaswagsbag isn’t that a bit like the “guns don’t kill people, people kill people” argument.
While technically true, the gun helps considerably.

I assume Lorelia means that as a result of her sister’s choices she has found herself at a higher risk from a specific type of evil man that she wouldn’t have otherwise been in contact with/or that this man wouldn’t have dared to behave so badly had they met in a different situation.
She didn’t say her sister deserved to be raped, that she was asking for it, or that is was her fault.

It's in no way my sister's fault she was raped - she wasn't doing anything wrong. But very, very sadly there are men out there who's criminal behaviour mean that women need to consider taking measures to protect themselves. My sister won't take any such measures - I can respect that but I fear for her.

Lorelai have you done ANY research into the behaviour of rape victims post rape? Increased promiscuity, taking risks with their personal safety is NOT uncommon. It's likely her way of excercising what little control of her body she feels she has. And yea you do come across as very critical of her.

I'm not implying anyone is raped because of their own behaviour or that they are responsible for being raped.

I am saying that seeing women worship men because of their status breeds misogyny. Men of high or low status know fine well theses women don't value them. In fact they would probably treat with contempt the same men if they filled shelves for a living.

There are no double standards here because men have no interest in how successful women are compared to each other.

It also may be an element of her putting 2 fingers up to rape culture. "I was raped but like hell will I behave like a victim I'll wear what I like"

I think boys also need to be taught to call out the behaviour of other boys

See this baffles me. Women aren't responsible for rapists behaviour, but non rapist men are? What because they share the same genitals? Why the fuck should Phil the plumber call out sexist behaviour in the pub and risk getting a hiding to help Women?

To stop rape culture terrence? Which is mainly perpetuated by men?

"All it takes for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing"

There are certainly men in my life would do this, sadly not enough.

"Why the fuck should Phil the plumber call out sexist behaviour in the pub and risk getting a hiding to help Women?"
Does the fact tgt you think Phil the plumber might get a hiding for it give you any sort of a clue?

Terrance it’s not about saying they’re responsible. More that the good men who are uncomfortable should stand against bad behaviour when in a group of males where the perpetrators are assuming that ‘anything goes’ because all men think like them. If you were in a group and someone stared making racist comments you would call them out, beacause it’s clearly not ok, there’s no debate. Misogyny should considered the the same.

I don't know why it would baffle you?

So we live in a society and there are norms.
Norms like music videos that show women are sex objects or being abused and liking it - watch a few Rihanna videos.

Those men who were rugby players appeared entitled, privileged beyond belief and up themselves to me.

Did you read the link about rapes in Kenya being reduced by 50 percent?

Have a look at No means No worldwide

I understand they:

Taught women how to talk themselves out of a risk situation , say No and also to use self defence skills.

Taught men to challenge rape myths and also intervene when they witnessed predatory behaviour.

TerranceandPhilip that is a fascinating contribution actually. I hope you don’t get jumped on because it is a good question.

Phil the plumber would have no chance taking on a group of Rugger Bugger thugs, because they would look on him with the same contempt as the women they refer to as groups of sluts. The difference is they will fight Phil in the street and they will fight the sluts in the bedroom (after a healthy dose of well rehearsed public school boy charm.)

‘Phil the plumber’ is as powerless as the ‘group of sluts’.

When my ds was 9 years old he turned round to me one day when we were out and about and said "mum, why do van drivers look at women so much?". I was amazed he'd even noticed. I hadn't mentioned it to him previously or discussed it. I thought it was incredibly perceptive of him to notice such things. We had an age appropriate chat about how it's incredibly rude and disrespectful behaviour. I'm proud of how he's growing up.

fornerbabe wow well done your son

I think men need to be taught to intervene I really do

TerranceandPhilip

However Phil the plumber could do something as low level as not laughing at a misogynist joke. Not using derogatory terms to describe women just so as he ‘fits in’.
He could gently remind Jim the joiner that the girl he is ogling is only 12 years older than his daughter.
Or say to Eric the electrician, “I really don’t think that one at the bar feels very comfortable with the things you are implying about her because of her outfit.”
He could tell Brian the barman that he really doesn’t think his mate should be served another drink, his behaviour is getting out of hand.

Terrance: "Why the fuck should Phil the plumber call out sexist behaviour in the pub and risk getting a hiding to help Women?"

As a white person, if I had a black friend who was on the receiving end of racist comments, I really hope that I would say something rather than just let them deal with it.

And "toxic masculinity" is bad for men too. (Inverted commas because I am unsure about the term but it's useful shorthand)

If these rugger bigger are such thugs and assholes why young women are desperate to be around them and not Phil the plumber ? Phil will know full well how they regard women as sluts and treat them like shit, but still they are drawn back. Phil probably has no respect for the women or the men.

wordtothewise... are you Phil the plumber, by chance?

Phil is an everyman.