I WILL tell my daughter to moderate her behaviour...

[NotTakenUsername]

Because this land does not protect her otherwise.
I will advise that she should not attend a party with multiple men who think nothing of referring to women as a group of sluts or texting a mate to ask if there is any chance of a threesome.
I will ask her to consider what she wears and the impression she might inadvertently give off. I will strongly advise that a VPL is far preferable to the things that could be insinuated if she chooses to go underwear free.
I will ask her to take the long walk home to avoid being alone in a dimly lit area. I will inconvenience myself daily to collect her if that is safer still.
I will warn her of the reputation she may find hard to shake, if she has too many sexual partners.
I will teach her that men lie to get what they want.
I don’t care if this makes me a shit feminist or worse still a chauvinist.
She is my daughter and I love her and I must protect her from this world that is so perversely weighted towards men at the expense of women.
I’m appalled, but not surprised.
I give up.

Saw this on twitter..

We have three little daughters and - especially today - I just feel so disheartened about the world they're growing up in. Wasn't this all supposed to be getting better?

I think boys also need to be taught to call out the behaviour of other boys. So it becomes as socially unacceptable to be disrespectful of women/girls as e.g. drink driving.
Absolutely this.

We need men to start taking this seriously too. I've said before that if men really wanted to, they could render feminism unnecessary tomorrow. They just don't want to. I think men need to do these things
1) Stop using porn
2) Stop using prostitutes
3) Take equal responsibility for the raising of their children and the domestic load, and make sure their children are aware that they do.
4)Stop using sexist language and making sexist jokes.
5) Publically call out other men who use sexist language and make sexist jokes.
5)Call out sexist behaviour and attitudes at work.
6) Accept that if they don't do these things they are part of the problem -even if they are "one of the good guys"

Spot on.

Same goes for equal pay, mutatis mutandis.

The pyramid graphic linked to above is very good too.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/ireland-ulster-rugby-rape-case-not-guilty-brendan-kelly-qc-victim-a8278216.html

“Is our response to a rape complainant – not just during the trial, but afterwards, regardless of the verdict – really based on any certainty of what happened? Or are we indulging in fantasies of retribution against women who step out of line by speaking up in the first place? If so, we need to take a step back. No one was found guilty today. Those railing against “false accusers” may need to look closer to home.“

I too feel that the lesson here is do not report and that staying safe is on women and women’s freedoms. I feel as if misogyny is really ramping up.

There has been a No Means No campaign running for a few years in Kenya, and it has reduced rape by 50% among young people. It teaches self defence to girls, and it teaches about consent to boys.
apolitical.co/solution_article/kenyas-self-defence-classes-halting-rape-pandemic-tracks/

If you have daughters, take them to Judo and Akido to learn self defence. They don't rely on physical strength in the same way some martial arts do.

Mother's of sons,

I dunno.

(Well I do).

As a mother to young boys who love rugby I am not going to let them play rugby.
They are young enough that I can move them away from it and fill that space with an activity that does not demean women and entitle men.

I am never ever going to another rugby match.

I will write to the rugby unions if these players are allowed to play again.

The entitled culture of rugby was evident in this trial.

Our children are going to keep respecting women.

I am going to get my kids to learn karate so they can protect their female friends and themselves.

I am just remembering how my husband would always make sure everyone of my female friends were escorted home safely no matter what time and no matter how far away they lived. My children are going to do that.

They are going to stand up to dickheads and they are going to be well over six feet.

I am going to explain to them just how sick
Porn is.

I am going to monitor who they speak and exchange messages with friends.

Oh and one other thing I am going to take my sons to attend a rape trial if at all possible and make them sit through it or let them read the transcripts.

I attended one when I was at uni, where a teenager was raped.

Trigger-warning.

The rapist broke into her home while her parents were upstairs sleeping and she had a hellish ordeal. Nevertheless her character was put on trial and I decided there and then that I would probably never report rape.

It was however made clear to me there and then that women and children are raped and blamed for

Thank you for that link upstartcow that is positive to read.

As a mother to young boys who love rugby I am not going to let them play rugby.

This was powerful. And here is why:

Just yesterday I wrote this thread saying I will actively encourage my daughter to take the long route home. To ask her to voluntarily surrender some aspects of her supposed liberties.

Yet when I read this, my ‘go to’ thought was, “bit harsh, I’m sure not all Rugby boys are like that...”

What a perfect example of the ingrained prejudice I (we?) have, even when I try to fight it! I’m stuck here thinking, “why should two little boys lose a sport they enjoy, when they haven’t done anything wrong...?”

BUT I’m not thinking why should my daughter miss out on a short cut home when she hasn’t done anything wrong.

One parental precaution lowers the risk of their child becoming a perpetrator and the likelihood of them associating with perpetrators.

One parental precaution lowers the risk of their child becoming a victim.

One caused me to think, “bit harsh!”
One caused me to think, “it’s the only way to keep her safe...”

Food for thought.

I need to think about the rugby thing. My first thought was it wasn't fair. But my second thought was about rugby culture and male entitlement and the way rugby players at my children's schools are regarded and regard themselves. And the whole thing about "rugby players never arguing with the ref" ethos which gives them an automatic position on the moral high ground and more leeway when it comes to traditional rugby tour "high jinks" . Hmm. Must think more.

Tell your daughter not to hang around VIP areas of nightclubs hoping to meet men she wouldn't look twice at if they were painters and decorators.

The men who I can quite believe raped this girl will have women flinging themselves at them on a weekly basis. They know it's because of their status. Other men know this too. They regard such women as whores. The prosecution played to this, its an easy win.

Young men see this female behaviour all around them and are expected to respect it. They don't. They know these men are cunts and yet women flock to them because of their status. It breeds misogyny.

You don't see men behaving this way around successful women.

Boys learn how to treat women by example. That might be on TV, in books or through porn.

But it is also in our homes. They watch the relationship between their mother and father and they learn from it.

As good parents to boys and girls we need to set the very best example. That means not accepting any treatment from the men in your life that is anything less than respectful.

Men who talk about their wives in a disrespectful way (even if they think it's a joke) are actually committing child abuse. They are teaching boys how to be future abusers.

This can be as small as making jokes about Mum's rubbish driving or cooking or cleaning, talking about how Mum is so weak she needs dad to look after her, doing all the "manly" things around the house and leaving the housework to Mum and right through to obvious abuse and violence.

If your relationship is not 100% equal and you are not sure your OH is setting the example you want, then maybe that's the place to start.

" They know these men are cunts and yet women flock to them because of their status. It breeds misogyny."
Victim blaming and using cunt as a term of abuse doesn't help either.

wordtothewise I can’t really understand your comment it is unclear what point you are trying to make.

rememberthetime I do agree with the idea that respect is taught by example but I worry about your use of the child abuse label in such a context. It concerns me when I see this as it feeds into the, “sure, everything is abusive,” rhetoric. I think we need to somewhat preserve the label to protect children.

I'm making the point that the girls are only there because of the men's status. They have no interest in rugby or the men themselves. You might say infact they have no respect for men beyond what they can get from them.

All men know this goes on, this is why you get tropes about alpha men and women who won't look twice at the same men if it weren't for their status.

Consider why the young girls are hanging about these sorts of wankers and you see why men have respect for them.

*why men have no respect for them.

I have one of each. My DS (11) is already getting lots of messages about consent, behaviour, respect.
I hope to encourage him to avoid porn when the time comes.

My DD is also told she is the boss of her body and learns about consent, behaviour and respect.

I want to give them a shield of protection somehow!

So to summarise, if you don’t go the same clubs as these men then they cannot rape you? If you do, then what can you expect?

I’m sorry I’m still struggling, wordtothewise.

What about an out-of-towner. Can she go to a well known ‘sleb haunt’ and avoid this sort of judgement or should she have checked with the bouncers to see if there were any ‘entitled local slebs’ inside? I mean you know how it looks...
If she see one inside, is she meant to leave the club? If he is charming and lovely should she treat him with contempt because she won’t be fooled? Does she get a refund on the door tax or should it just be her financial loss and the price to pay for avoiding rape?

I'm making the point that the girls are only there because of the men's status

What? So they deserve what’s coming to them do they?

Best to look at a society which offers lots of opportunities for boys who are physically fit and talented but underfunds girls’ and women’s sports.

Besides you don’t know why this girl went to that party. My guess is that she went because her friends went. All youngsters flock around the popular people. I’m sure there were quite a few lads there who jumped at the chance to enhance their status by hanging out with the rugby players.

Yet it’s only the girls that are to blame and held to moral standards that boys are not. And if they fail then they’re seen as not worthy of respect.

Such double standards.

You see, Wordtothewise’s post perfectly demonstrates the patriarchal “damned if do ...” bullshit.

If women are wary of men and avoid getting drunk around them then they are told “Not all men are like that, you man-hating feminist”. However if they trust men and then something bad happens then they are told “well what do you expect? They are men and that’s what they’re like!”

Seriously can’t win.

Those of us who are the parents of boys really need to step up. Sorry if people don’t want to hear this, but we do.

Thank you for acknowledging this. I’ve just listened to womens hours with another feature about how common upskiriting is. How is this happening? What is going wrong with the upbringing of boys if this is so common place that teachers say they simply can’t tackle harassment of girls in schools as if they did they’d do nothing else?
I went to 3 large secondary schools in different areas, very different demographics and I can honestly say 15/20 years ago if any boy had even thought of behaving in a harassing manner they’d have had a ton of shit come down upon them. It just wasn’t done and it wasn’t a problem. We had very little sex segregation, mixed swimming lessons etc and none of my female peers remember any harassment at this age. I hope by the time my dd is a teen there will have been a massive backlash and I won’t have to tell her to be on guard against men constantly. How exhausting to have to live like that.