I WILL tell my daughter to moderate her behaviour...

[NotTakenUsername]

Because this land does not protect her otherwise.
I will advise that she should not attend a party with multiple men who think nothing of referring to women as a group of sluts or texting a mate to ask if there is any chance of a threesome.
I will ask her to consider what she wears and the impression she might inadvertently give off. I will strongly advise that a VPL is far preferable to the things that could be insinuated if she chooses to go underwear free.
I will ask her to take the long walk home to avoid being alone in a dimly lit area. I will inconvenience myself daily to collect her if that is safer still.
I will warn her of the reputation she may find hard to shake, if she has too many sexual partners.
I will teach her that men lie to get what they want.
I don’t care if this makes me a shit feminist or worse still a chauvinist.
She is my daughter and I love her and I must protect her from this world that is so perversely weighted towards men at the expense of women.
I’m appalled, but not surprised.
I give up.

I have a boy of 13, with his first 'girl' friend (she is keen to hold his hand and peck him on the cheek, he is less so) but both kids are physically about 17 (ie bodies hormones way ahead of emotions/life experience).
I did the Pants rule with him when younger and the Tea Consent rules.
I try to talk to him too (tho he hates it :)
I have a girl of 10. Still a tomboy atm. But I know what the world is for girls.
I hope I will teach both equally to value their bodies and emotions, and other peoples too. Also to dress mindfully, stay in well lit areas/with friends, to walk away / report when needed.

She could always wear a thong to avoid VPL rather than wear no pants - not sure where that one came from, is it common to do that?

The 'reputation' stuff seems a bit old fashioned to me, I don't think I've heard anyone refer to a woman's 'reputation' as an adult. Surely your daughter can have sex with as many men as she likes but it'd be a good idea to make sure they aren't dickheads first and that she wants to do it?

sounds like you know a lot of shit men/boys though - and I guess it depends how you approach telling her all this, cos at the end of the day much of avoiding all this is about self respect and having decent friends. Don't make breaking all these 'rules' seem super tempting!

Teen I agree. Not following the crowd is a really important lesson (for girls as well).

Also, that being a macho hard man isn't particularly a good thing and that showing emotions and being kind aren't signs of weakness.

I think boys also need to be taught to call out the behaviour of other boys. So it becomes as socially unacceptable to be disrespectful of women/girls as e.g. drink driving.

YES!

is upbringing influential enough to prevent these people existing? I don't think it is.

PinguDance
You might want to take a look at the details of today's rape case and the how many of the Warboys victims were treated by the police? That is what people are talking about.

The 'reputation' stuff seems a bit old fashioned to me, I don't think I've heard anyone refer to a woman's 'reputation' as an adult. Surely your daughter can have sex with as many men as she likes but it'd be a good idea to make sure they aren't dickheads first and that she wants to do it?

you sound very out of touch

I sat in court when she was a victim of sexual assault. Her reputation was ANNIHILATED. Really obscure things like her hobbies were infered to paint her as hypersexual.

"when a friend was.."

I will be sending my 7 year old to karate and when she's old enough kick boxing.

I have already taught her a fuck you world attitude. She is wonderful, caring and unfailingly polite but she takes no shit.

I'm disgusted by the judge and jury. I hope they can look at themselves in the mirror knowing what they have done. And should the worst happen and my DD was raped, I wouldn't let her report it to the police I would deal with the bastard myself because the justice system doesn't care about women. We are disposable fuck holes who are handy for a bit of cleaning and cooking too as far as the law is concerned.

Agree with most posts as a mother to a 17 yr old dd.

Any ideas on how we address misogynist victim blaming views held by OTHER WOMEN?

I'm thinking in particular judges (though male judges of course just as bad) especially in the crap they spout in their summations/advice to juries.

We need men to start taking this seriously too. I've said before that if men really wanted to, they could render feminism unnecessary tomorrow. They just don't want to. I think men need to do these things

1. Stop using porn
2. Stop using prostitutes
3. Take equal responsibility for the raising of their children and the domestic load, and make sure their children are aware that they do. 4)Stop using sexist language and making sexist jokes.
4. Publically call out other men who use sexist language and make sexist jokes. 5)Call out sexist behaviour and attitudes at work.
5. Accept that if they don't do these things they are part of the problem -even if they are "one of the good guys"

Any ideas on how we address misogynist victim blaming views held by OTHER WOMEN?

IMO its a defensive mechanism.
Distance yourself from the victim so you wont be one too

"I have already taught her a fuck you world attitude. She is wonderful, caring and unfailingly polite but she takes no shit."
This is fantastic. But I did this too-and my dd still ended up at 21 in a reltionship with a physically and emotionally abusive man. We need to do more. Fuck knows what, though.......

You think springhen?

It seems more like moral distancing to me, they don't want to be seen as condoning "immoral" behaviour - cos God forbid women have sex drives and enjoy sex but won't accept being raped

Bertrand "I've said before that if men really wanted to, they could render feminism unnecessary tomorrow. They just don't want to."

sadly I think that's the beginning and end of it. I've always agreed with Germaine Greer though.

when I was a child the comment about WIFE was Washing Ironing Fucking Etc. I think that holds true now.

It seems more like moral distancing to me, they don't want to be seen as condoning "immoral" behaviour - cos God forbid women have sex drives and enjoy sex but won't accept being rape

that too...its all about distancing oneself from the victim as it gives an illusion of not being one yourself.

like if theres a local murderer on the lose, a woman who went running alone in the dark late at night. "Well she shouldnt have gone running in the dark" = "Im not going to be a victim cause Im not like her". Even though you are just as vulnerable to the local killer as the jogger was IYKWIM

It shouldn't be allowed to display that misogyny as "fact" to a jury though.

I wouldn't blame women for starting to take things into our own hands. I don't think it will happen though. Men are bigger and stonger than us, and I think that getting hold of guns for eg is easier for men than women - same as drugs - most nefarious type activity women have to go through men for access as men are usually the ones doing the crime.

At the moment though there is little recourse in the law for the massive amounts of sexual violence meted out to us. Look at rotherham, rochdale, saville, childrens homes, warboys, reid, this & etc and so on. Women and girls are raped every night of every week and society says so what.

If anything happened to the DDs I think I'd be talking to some shady locals. WTF is the point in going to the police? A shit ton of trauma, emotionally wrecked, "reputation" destroyed as PP said - they annihilate you - and then there's the death threats rape threats in cases like this... Same with CE men and women FFS were saying let's have her raped, hope she is raped, hope she is killed.. The original crime maybe you can get up and move on, involve the criminal justice system and it seems to be game over.

Dukes "I wouldn't blame women for starting to take things into our own hands"

I'm actively wishing they would. There was an excellent drama with James Nesbitt on this. I'm sure there are lots of writers who would love to write revenge drama but it would never get shown.

I am writing a revenge drama at the moment!

Have you read The Power by Naomi Alderman? It's good (but depressing as women eventually become corrupted in a similar way?)

I haven't read it, no.

At the moment I don't think I would find it depressing.

wasn't there a C4 drama years ago where all men were wiped from the earth somehow? I'm thinking about 20 years ago so a big stretch if anyone remembers it. I didn't see it, I just remember people discussing it at work.

cos at the end of the day much of avoiding all this is about self respect

THIS is the attitude we have to challenge.

Bertrand, I'm so sorry about your daughters relationship. I was in an abusive relationship at the same age and it still effects me 20+ years later.

If I could I'd wrap my little girl in cotton wool and hide her from the world as it is. It is a fucked up time to be a woman and that infuriates me. It's all the little things too as well as the big things. I hike regularly and men feel the need to tell me how to do this safely when I'm out walking. I've managed to walk hundreds of fucking miles without being run over and I know what a fucking foot path is thanks dickheads. I also know where entrances to country paths are so I'll stick to my fucking route. The ooh bet your husband doesn't thing your outfit is very sexy. Well no, I'd guess that walking trousers a fleece and boots are an acquired fetish bit they are very comfortable so fuck you too.

Sorry, I went of on a tangent and a rant thee but it is all part of the same problem. Men and their handmaidens trying to police women's behaviour and deciding that if they don't conform to their ideal they deserve to be raped by mysogynistic bastards.

And before anyone points it out, yes I'm very angry. I'm very angry at today's verdict and the world on general.

I have sons. From 18 months, the message they hear from me is ‘if it is someone else’s body, and they say no, then you stop’. Deliberately chosen to last as a message until they are 18 plus. In time I will teach enthusiastic consent.

It’s so ingrained though. Whilst the onus is on women and women’s behaviour nothing will change. Pretty much any way to control access to women has been tried somewhere in the world and men still hurt those women. You could never leave your home and some evil fucker can still break in and attack you.

It’s really really difficult to challenge stuff. I’ve some male friends who are turning into proper chauvinists or they always were but used to hide it better and they just don’t speak to me anymore as I don’t stand for their shit. They don’t want women to be actual human beings, they want someone to look down on and to serve them and to flatter them - fuck off.

I liked The Power but I don’t buy women would be exactly like men after having the power for five minutes - if you gave me a gun I wouldn’t start shooting people with it or use it to force others to do as I say.