I WILL tell my daughter to moderate her behaviour...

[NotTakenUsername]

Because this land does not protect her otherwise.
I will advise that she should not attend a party with multiple men who think nothing of referring to women as a group of sluts or texting a mate to ask if there is any chance of a threesome.
I will ask her to consider what she wears and the impression she might inadvertently give off. I will strongly advise that a VPL is far preferable to the things that could be insinuated if she chooses to go underwear free.
I will ask her to take the long walk home to avoid being alone in a dimly lit area. I will inconvenience myself daily to collect her if that is safer still.
I will warn her of the reputation she may find hard to shake, if she has too many sexual partners.
I will teach her that men lie to get what they want.
I don’t care if this makes me a shit feminist or worse still a chauvinist.
She is my daughter and I love her and I must protect her from this world that is so perversely weighted towards men at the expense of women.
I’m appalled, but not surprised.
I give up.

Exactly formerbabe. So much emphasis for girls on being "nice". Its hard to turn that off right until the moment you are sexually harassed.

OP I totally get you. I wish we had freedom and could teach our girls they do but the reality is they don't. Todays verdict shows that and we have to protect ourselves and those we love. If all girls turned inwards stuck with other girls and refused to engage with or attend parties with men like that, then what would they do?

FWIW I took very little precautions and was fine.

Twice I was raped it was in broad daylight by men I knew and trusted.

Most men are fine - I am a bit fatalistic about this stuff probably. If it's going to happen it's going to happen, so why not have a good time.

Certainly the police and wider society care little about women and children (rotherham, telford etc) being victims of sex crimes.

It's intractible isn't it.

Earlier I was thinking, so maybe if all women just say, we're not socialising with men any more. Enough. But that's never going to work, is it.

Im having a bit of a struggle as 14 year old dd likes to wear her skirt shorter than I'd like. She has sensitivity issues. I want to say wear your skirt longer as I don't want males perving over you but it sounds too much like victim blaming to me. She knows I want it longer and why but I just feel I handled it wrong. I can't recall what was said but I'm sure it will come up again when she has new year 11 uniform. School allowed the pupils to vote and they went from skater skirts to a short and clingy one.

Those of us who are the parents of boys really need to step up. Sorry if people don’t want to hear this, but we do.

We do. I have two boys and yup, they’re only tiny now but I will sure as hell be raising them to treat women properly, and to respect physical and other boundaries.

And OP I agree with you. As long as you’re saying (which I’m sure you are) ‘you shouldnt need to do this, you should be able to live freely but in the current climate..’

We need to educate boys AND girls to respect each other and see each other as fellows, not objects. The ‘pants’ campaigns (and ‘stop! My body!’ Where I live) is a great start. It puts the idea of boundaries in from the start.
As they get older I suppose I will use situations/TV/the news as discussion points. Talk about what’s happening, ask them their opinions, give them different viewpoints, challenge any behaviours or attitudes that sneak in.
I will be open about bodies and sex in an age appropriate way - when the time comes we will have the talk about porn.

I’m very happy to hear any other tips or techniques others have for raising boys who are decent human beings. I hope dh and I model respect and equality in the home but there’s always more to be learned.

its never the victims fault but bad men do often look for certain things in their victims, and being able to blame and shame them is one of those things.

It's also blatantly linked to the huge amounts of violent porn that teen boys are exposed to. Teenage girls are being pressured into anal sex and threesomes, which was unheard of when I was a teenager. Porn has been such a destructive influence.

If all girls turned inwards stuck with other girls and refused to engage with or attend parties with men like that, then what would they do?

Surely both girls and boys should be refusing to associate with arseholes like that? Even more so the boys! It's our sons we should be teaching about acceptable male behaviour; they should be the ones telling other men that they won't accept their behaviour and they are not welcome, not just the girls. Then what would they do!?!

its not only girls who have to keep themselves safe though is it?
Speaking as a parent of B/G twins, in fact it was the boy who was plied with drink and then forced to give someone a blowjob while someone else filmed it and distributed the image.
Just saying.

That Irish case is like a perfect example of toxic masculinity.

If my son turned out like that I would genuinely throw up.

For anyone wondering, this seems to be a straightforward account of the girl's perspective: www.newsletter.co.uk/news/paddy-jackson-and-stuart-olding-trial-graphic-details-of-alleged-attack-outlined-in-court-1-8355827

I know who I believe. They're disgusting pigs, the lot of them.

If all girls turned inwards stuck with other girls and refused to engage with or attend parties with men like that, then what would they do?

But how are you supposed to know you're at a party with rapists until it happens?

Those whatsapp messages show a hideous contempt for women and it's just seen as banter, as "boys will be boys". I can't imagine how I would feel if I found out my DS ever spoke like that about women.

A huge number of sexual assaults happen when the victim is drunk. Girls need to be educated about not getting so drunk they don’t know what they’re doing and boys taught that if a girl is so drunk she can’t give consent, then it is not ok to have sex.
I sat to my dds that if that if they can’t have respect for themselves then, nobody else will respect them.

Looking at crime figures, how many men are the perpetrators and the victims of violence; the number of men in prisons, etc... I would say it is pretty sensible to continue to educate our daughters to 'moderate' their behavior because they seem to be doing pretty well in terms of behavior.

It seems that boys need to be taught the same way instead of feeling they are safer because they are physically stronger.

DH and I are the parents of a DD and a DS. We are trying to make sure both DC grow up respecting all people irrespective of sex, gender, creed or colour. We teach them both equality, safety and respect. They have both been taught cooking, cleaning, money matters, DIY etc etc etc.
DD is better at DIY than her DF or her DS thanks to her DGF also embracing equality. DS is a competent cook. They both seem to have the self respect and confidence needed to make the right choices and avoid certain situations. DH and I can only hope.

Ive had a couple of friends who date-rapey/abusive men made a bee-line for.

what they had in common was being people pleasers and being conditioned to always be nice and polite.

girls are taught that they must be accomodating. Bad men pick this out as a desirable chatacteristic in a potential victim

Very powerful OP. I agree with everyone and share your rage.

We have to teach our daughters to protect themselves and our sons not to be like those appalling rugby players - there is no alternative.

There is a current toxic narrative that feeds the contempt that too many men have for women. Be it the results of today's court case, the fact that women victims had to go back to court to get Warboys kept in prison, the fact that women are now lectured by (mainly ) men that our biology must be hidden and unspoken as it is so disgusting that it offends others. Pornography is unchecked , our boundaries are violated and our political parties consider women's very legal identity of such little importance it can be legally shared with any man who fancies it - no matter how disgusting a pervert that they are.

I know that it is not all men - but currently the misogynists are holding the floor .

I have three boys who are still small. Those with older boys, how can I make sure they respect boundaries and are respectful etc. they're going to be getting different messages from society, any advice?

DullAndOld that is terrible and I am so sorry that happened to him. I don’t want to pick at a sensitive subject but would you be willing to share how the police dealt with this (or if he made it a police matter)?

After the party, the victim said the following:

Thing is I would report it if I knew they would get done. But they won’t. And that’s unnecessary stress for me. It’s also humiliating

It will be my word against theirs, not like they have cctv in their house and because there’s more of them and they’ll all have the same fabricated story about me being some slut who was up for it.

How right she was.

I think boys also need to be taught to call out the behaviour of other boys. So it becomes as socially unacceptable to be disrespectful of women/girls as e.g. drink driving.

I sat to my dds that if that if they can’t have respect for themselves then, nobody else will respect them

How is getting drunk (your example of what you will teach your DD not to do) not having respect for yourself?

Men get drunk. They respect themselves.

YY TeenTimesTwo

I think boys also need to be taught to call out the behaviour of other boys. So it becomes as socially unacceptable to be disrespectful of women/girls as e.g. drink driving

This! Only men can change rape culture. Women can only complain and hope that men listen.

we didn't make it a police matter; he wouldn't let me. You can imagine the conversation cant you?

luckily the pic only got distributed to a few phones and not to social media, thank god.