Why are TIMs colonising womanhood when they hate us?

[SwearyG]

I am so angry right now that I don't think I'm going to make sense. TIMs hate us don't they - at least the TRA ones. They hate us. Everything we say logically and calmly and evidence based is just denied, minimised and ridiculed. It seems that we're collateral damage in the battle for them to appropriate womanhood. They don't care how many of us are raped, abused, assaulted, belittled, etc. As long as they get to set the agenda and rewrite the fucking world where nobody can exist without them being centred.

I have just listened to the World Service this morning where they took my points about dignity and consent and said I was being ridiculous and trans people, indeed men, aren't a threat to women and that it's the same as denying gay rights. I can't even come up with a coherent argument to that because it's so ludicrous.

Woman means something, I'm buggered if I'm giving it up without a fight and I'm also buggered if I'm going to pretend that male violence isn't a problem.

Why do they hate us?

I've read some of your Digital Spy posts Jaycee before you started posting on Mumsnet and I do think there is an element of changing the tone or playing to a specific audience going on. Which is understandable to a degree because all three sites you post on have a very different demographic.

Compared to the rabid transactivists you do seem pretty reasonable but I also do wonder whether your vested interest lies more in creating a separation between yourself and the newer trans crowd like Riley Dennis and Lily Madigan than standing with women due to our concerns about self ID.

This I would also understand but it's not quite the same thing as the shared perspective between the feminist women here so it's not surprising that we are suspicious when you post negatively about this board elsewhere. It leaves us with a lingering gut feeling that you don't really, truly 'get it' despite saying a lot of the right words.

Ultimately it's a circle that can't be squared and I think you probably know that.

That's why we like them. They're not faking it and they're not trying to manipulate us.

They're also funny, which, I dunno about anyone else but I'll take succinct and hilarious over wordy and so tedious that their writing might work well as a sleep aid any day.

Men hate us because they exploit us. It's lIke other types of class oppression, where the oppressors evolve a particular type of hatred, anger and resentment toward those they oppress.

It helps them to think we're inferior because that proves we "need" them to rule over us, it justifies their poor treatment of us, it tells them we enjoy it or deserve it, and it protects their egos from realising were probably fine without them a lot of the time, whereas they're actually incredibly dependent on us.

They're needy people. They need our domestic, carer, reproductive, and especially emotional labour, and they need to compare/contrast themselves to us to feel all manly about themselves.

Hate us but couldn't possibly just leave us in peace.

*In the case of TIM's, just replace "manly" with "alpha"- Because the ones that hate us are thinking they're going to walk into "womanhood" & get to be Boss.

What happens when they get into prominent positions that decide on matters such as abortion? So worrying on many levels.

What is it with anime? Seems both trends have come together. People see Trans as being a minority but it seems to be more of a trend now.

OvaHere, I am not planning on posting again after this mesage, so the rest of you can relax.

I just wanted to say thank you for reporting your read through and making some balanced comments that reflect very favourably on your fair mindedness.

This is exactly what I would hope more of us can try to do.

I suspect there is an element of truth in some of the things you say.

I also apologise for calling some of the theories discussed on here 'bonkers' over on Angels.

Whilst I do think that it was probably unfair of me not to say that on here if I was saying it at all. And would have been better not to have made any reaction and just kept the thought to myself.

But there you go I do just call these things like I see them. I am not consciously trying to put on an act or I would have acted that way.

Though I guess we all do play to our perception of ourselves to some extent in life.

Regardless that was my mistake and sorry to anyone it offended.

You will have noticed that I have been consistently opposed to self ID and removal of medical assessment everywhere that I have posted. And not in a million years am I faking anything or playing one off against the other. What I say is what I believe, no more, no less.

Yes, my views are evolving but they have always been in that direction. I am learning by talking to others and making my mind up on things I have never really thought about before. As this has not been the great burning issue of my life for many years until very recently when it has just taken off around me and I wondered why.

I was genuinely looking for some kind of common ground because I regard the actions of the extremists and activists creating fights everywhere as counterproductive. Violence is wrong - no exceptions. Sadly, that will not stop it happening, of course.

Do I get what you are saying?

Well I came on here to try and find out why you felt so strongly, so, hopefully yes I do now a little better.

It was my only motive so and achieved that goal and despite your response I am okay with that.

Do I have a vested interest in creating a separation between myself and all the others who are doing and saying stupid things that are clearly self centred - well, then - yes - I think that is probably true.

Because I certainly do not endorse that approach either as you have discovered. So I would distance myself apart from anything wrong.

I think that inventing names, calling them out and screaming bigotry or believing that only anger will solve problems is simply not what we should be doing to find a way through.

I wished to try to understand what was going on and why you feel as you do and now accept that some of them are valid and will keep on saying so.

So believe it or not I am grateful for your responses. It was what I was looking for and has taught me a lot.

Things are deeply divided right now but I hope for some sense to prevail.

I found some posts on angels really interesting. It was interesting to see measured (mainly) critical conversation among trans people who are not needing to assert themselves over people who strongly disagree. We on MN can be pretty strident in our language, when we are riled up. Bonkers is the least of it.

However, there is still a fundamental misunderstanding- or difference of perspective. Women have by and large been happy to accept transsexuals as 'honorary women'. Share space with them etc. It was a privilege extended to people who behaved appropriately.

We are now being asked to believe something we do not think is true. - that someone who is not a woman can decide that they are a woman, and access all the supports put in place to compensate for a male dominated world. That someone born male can think they know more about being a woman than women do clearly doesn't make sense. In addition, the overwhelming majority of violence and abuse is carried out by men. We can relax in a female environment because violence is statistically less likely to happen. If men don't want violent people in their space, then they need to address that. They don't get to come into women's spaces to escape it because guess what- it follows them in!

transwomen need to accept that women should control women's spaces and that transwomen are honorary women.

Sorry I had to come back briefly as someone asked for my thoughts.

All I want to say is, picklemepopcorn, I do agree with your post entirely.

That is the issue and nothing in there is at all arguable by me.

Glad I was asked to look at your post because it has given me more hope for the future. Thank you.

Which thread is it on the Angels site? My phone doesn't like links to that site, it always says they don't exist when other people tell me they are still there.

The linked thread doesn't exist, I just randomly browsed. I'll see what I can find.

This was one.

www.angelsforum.co.uk/phpforum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=34797

More than anything it is the blatant dishonest that gets up my nose.
I have been 15 years on Feminist blogs and forums, and this is the blueprint for what men do.
They say they come to a room full of women to learn and then they try to teach us instead through some of the same transparent manipulative tactics men have used on us all our lives. When they are through using us for their narcissistic feed, or in this case more nefarious purposes, they thank us for our service.

As so often happens when interacting with men, women are being pushed from tolerance to submission. As so often happens when interacting with men, women are called intolerant for refusing to submit.

Thanks pickle but I just get a "does not exist" message every time I click link to that site . What's the thread title where the posts referencing MN are, or a clue to it?

I'm reading a long one about how awful TERFs are at the moment. Starting at time of Speakers Corner.

Click on board index, then trans chat, t lounge, then the thread about confronting cis women and terfs.

It's particularly nice when they fantasise about killing women they don't like.

Thanks pickle.

@Ereshkigal The thread I linked was removed (presumably to the members only area) earlier this afternoon.

Don't confuse TERFs with real women. They're a tiny unrepresentative group and you're more likely to meet the Pope in Sainsbury's than ever come across a TERF. Their hate agenda has no traction with real women who IME are very supportive of trans women.

Real woman = servant whose purpose in life it to make male people feel happy and supported. Any woman who disobeys = not a real woman.

What I find funny about that angry is that little do they know that TERFs love Sainsos and are always lurking s in the veg aisle.

Oh, and most women would be TERFs if they fucking knew what was going on behind their backs.

It reminds me of their self serving "real men don't rape" bullshit. Real women submit to male dominance so obviously these women are not real and can be abused with impunity.

The men on that forum spend an awful lot of time sharing their fantasies about the rape torture and killing of the "not real women" women.
Which also speaks to transgender identified males being just as pornsick as an other males and yet another reason not to want to share a shower with them.

Thanks Daisy.

Why do so many heteromen go along with the "transwomen are women" agenda? This seems commoner down south. Up here in Scotland most men I know find the trans thing mystifying and like an exotic animal with a bit missing (or added!) yet southern blokes who are more likely to be lefty dudebros seem to fall for it, despite Scotland voting for leftwing policies more than southern England. I can understand TIMs and gaymen not caring much about women but why should heteroblokes choose their arguments over ours or is it just the heteroblokes in the media and politics?

I think most of the TIMs on that site are deluded about what people actually think or what is happening. They only think women have any validity whatsoever if they are compliant and supportive of them. The Speakers Corner conversation was ridiculous, straight TRA propaganda. And then one of them tentatively said on another thread m that "perhaps the TERFs can't be making all the abuse and threats up" and there might be some extremism, and others rushed to deny it.

Oh, and most women would be TERFs if they fucking knew what was going on behind their backs.

They would. They couldn't be more entitled and male if they tried, for all they go on about how to communicate with "privileged cis women".

"Why do so many heteromen go along with the "transwomen are women" agenda? "

Men don't really treat TIM like women. Men may go along with the agenda either because it's beneficial to them, they don't see the problem, or they are scared of confrontation, especially when doing so isn't advantageous to them. Men, like women, will not like to be labelled as bigot and anti lgb. Also, men are afraid of male violence too, a man is just as likely to be afraid of a MIT as a MIT is of another man.