Why are TIMs colonising womanhood when they hate us?

[SwearyG]

I am so angry right now that I don't think I'm going to make sense. TIMs hate us don't they - at least the TRA ones. They hate us. Everything we say logically and calmly and evidence based is just denied, minimised and ridiculed. It seems that we're collateral damage in the battle for them to appropriate womanhood. They don't care how many of us are raped, abused, assaulted, belittled, etc. As long as they get to set the agenda and rewrite the fucking world where nobody can exist without them being centred.

I have just listened to the World Service this morning where they took my points about dignity and consent and said I was being ridiculous and trans people, indeed men, aren't a threat to women and that it's the same as denying gay rights. I can't even come up with a coherent argument to that because it's so ludicrous.

Woman means something, I'm buggered if I'm giving it up without a fight and I'm also buggered if I'm going to pretend that male violence isn't a problem.

Why do they hate us?

They hate us because we see them. We see them and we laugh at them.
And that's what they fear.

Men don't know if they want to own us, kill us, fuck us or be us.

Or all of these things at the same time.

Its their fucking problem.

Your strength is that you are calm and rational and evidently honest! This is a Trump like cult with little grasp on reality - just delusion. It IS frustrating at the outright denial and lies - but you have both come over as so credible and it's because of your calmness and quiet authority.
Once we start to bluster and be outraged, we sound like them.

Be outraged on here but on the air, your strength is your credibility. Remember all the listeners and lurkers. They will hear frustration and anger and may interpret that as hate. But they can also hear a calm and rational voice that doesn't lie (versus this never happens) and isn't promoting hate (versus transphobic terfs) but is calmly and rationally standing up for the rights of women and children (and everybody ) to safety, privacy and dignity. You're having such an impact!

I'm not sure.

I don't think they want us to be like sexy pornified stereotypes. Not really. They want them to be that with no "competition" although I think it's only them who see it as a compeition TBH.

I think they want to take all the roles that appeal to them and we can do what is left (prob childbearing, shitwork, telling men how fab they are). When we try to step out of where they want us to be that's when the anger starts which is the same as all of time.

I think they hate us because they can’t keep track of us any longer. A woman can now go through her entire life without ever needing or even wanting a man. I think this is why they hate lesbians in particular.

They know that we see through them and can easily reject them now. Many men have very weak egos and just aren’t strong enough to deal with being rejected and even ridiculed by women. A person with a healthy ego doesn’t need to put others down or attack them.

I think some of them just have a plain old fetish about dressing up and donning makeup and wigs.

And such bad wigs

Life appears to be a perpetual miserable struggle for these women haters. They’re not happy, healthy people. Consumed by their hatred, they’re constantly in destruct mode which, ultimately, shortens your life as maintaining that much hate is damaging to health.

They’re pathetic individuals really. Condemned to be nothing but parodies of females.

Only people who hate themselves can hate others in such a vehement manner.

I agree with all of the above. But I would add that they hate us because we are fully in touch with our femininity (whatever that actually means)

Unlike men we are encouraged and able to express our sensitivities, to cry, to feel emotion. We have close female bonds and friendships and we talk openly amongst ourselves. Men see that we have that ability and they want it for themselves too. but they think only way they can do that legitimately is to become a woman.

They don't just hate women, they hate masculinity too - for making them fell so shit about themselves for having feelings.

if we want men to stop hating us for being emotionally stable - they have to first look at how masculinity is treated in our society.

They might realise the problem lies with them - not with women at all.

but on the flip side of that is the added mindfuck that we actually are in touch with our masculine side too and feel no shame in having masculine traits, wearing masculine clothing or doing jobs traditionally offered to men. We are actually just in touch with what it is to be a person - without gender being involved at all. That must be really make them angry, I guess.

I think the aggressive, fact-denying trans identifying males often bother me slightly less than the young women who back them. There's something really unpleasant about seeing women putting these men first, and displaying their own liberality and tolerance by shitting on the women who have been raped or assaulted and do feel scared of men. I need to avoid Twitter. It's doing nothing for my blood pressure.

"Why are TIMs colonising womanhood when they hate us?"

I think colonisation is about the coloniser's hatred of the colonised.

The British Government didn't create the British Empire because it loved foreigners.

Sorry, complete digression there.

I totally agree with you AreYouTerfEnough. Plus I think they often feel they are inadequate men, laughed at by other men, so their answer is to pick on people who they perceive are weaker than them, women in this case. The trouble is those pesky weak women can see them for what they are and also laugh at them and the hatred becomes all consuming.

but on the flip side of that is the added mindfuck that we actually are in touch with our masculine side too and feel no shame in having masculine traits, wearing masculine clothing or doing jobs traditionally offered to men. We are actually just in touch with what it is to be a person - without gender being involved at all. That must be really make them angry, I guess.

I agree with your whole post but this in particular makes me so grateful to the women who fought for themselves and for us. They didn't pretend to be men when they cut their hair and started wearing trousers and working outside the home. They simply wanted to be treated as full human beings. And many men, who have been on top of the heap so long and who have been taught to despise femininity, can't work in the reverse way. They can't see that they have been restricted too because theyve always been told they're the default.

I don't get why they're so desperate to be seen as women when they don't like real women either. It's a bit like someone wanting to be seen as a cyclist but never getting on a bike and slagging off all cyclists. Why not just align yourself with a different group (apart from the fact that anyone can become a cyclist where as men can't become women).
I also hate the way male interviewers give transwomen an easy ride especially when they mention mental illness. Is it because they can play up to their protective macho male stereotype where as feminists don't want men protecting us from the scary world we just want them to treat us a equals.
No-one seems to question the causality re mental illness in transsexuals either, like maybe their unhappiness with their biological body is due to believing in fixed sexual stereotypes and being afraid to challenge these and be the person they want to be in their sex. Instead they employ dysfunctional magical thinking and believe everything would be great if they became women and everyone else believed they were real women and the people they wanted to have sex with believed they were real women too. The fact that they can think this whilst wanting to retain their penises seems more bizarre.

Be calm but be forceful. Point out the ways you’ve been sidelined before on air and point them out again if they happen.

But be calm, because as soon as you lose it youve lost.

May I express my thanks and admiration for what you are doing as well 👍

And I don’t know why men hate women. I only know that they do, and that they remain a danger for it it. Their aim is not to be us here, it’s to destroy us.

I think as others have said, many of them are not very mentally stable. Trans does often seem to go hand in hand with childhood trauma. They deflect their self-hatred onto the easiest and most socially acceptable target, which is women.

(Prepare for a NATALT backlash)

The rates of offending are quite telling. Behaviour patterns in general are difficult to assess, but the fact that TIMs offend at the same rate as men** suggest to me that it's likely many other behaviours remain the same.

The "competitive womaning" I've seen (TIM posts that "terfs hate us because we look better than them") is quite masculine behaviour. They hate us and therefore assume we hate them. They look for spurious reasons, even if they make no sense to most terfs, who typically probably aren't that interested in their appearance. From the anger they show, I think some of them are simply jealous that however much effort they go to, they are still less womanly than the butchest of terfs.

**journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

Stay as calm as you can, Sweary. Goodness knows, I understand and share your rage. But I suspect one of the reasons you are doing quite so well is that you are pretty and quiet and not remotely like the man-eating picture of feminists that the media likes to portray.

Sweary, I'd also like to thank you and Amy for getting this out there. It must be so frustrating when you feel you're not being allowed to get your points across and you're treated differently to the vulnerable TIMs and you're having to defend yourself over and over against accusations of hysteria and "but men won't do that!" Especially when you're speaking to a male interviewer so have to sugarcoat the fact that men as a class have oppressed and hurt women for years otherwise you'll push him even further to the other side of the debate. You're both doing such a good job though, and staying so calm and unhysterical that you'll definitely be reaching an awful lot of people.

Sorry, sweary, that must have been so disappointing for you to hear!

My DS 17, reckons that if a tribe sends its men to war and most of them get wiped out, the tribe can rebuild. If women go too, the tribe can't. So men value and therefore need to control women and their reproductive power in the tribe. What they need are wombs, the sentient apparatus attached to them is superfluous.

Sweary I really admire you for doing this! Some things that struck me about what the transwomen (except Barbara) were saying on the JOB show.

With self ID we simply can't challenge anyone who decides to enter a women's changing area. I have been followed into the loo in a pub by a man, and one of the bar staff clocked it and came straight in behind him and kicked him out, not just of the loos but of the pub. How could the bar staff respond in such a way if anyone can say "hey, I'm a woman and I'm going to press charges for your transphobic handling of me!" There will simply be no recourse.

Transwomen do not want to use men's spaces because they are aware of the vulnerability of women in such spaces. Transwomen have been using women's spaces forever and that's ok - what is not ok is the fact that any person would be able to use women's spaces without any challenge. And that, as you said, is a problem not just from a safety aspect but also one of dignity. Rod Liddle's column in the Sunday Times this week talked of how men rank women's bodies all the time in terms of fuckability. We need a private space where we can get undressed without being subjected to that. I work in bars where I hear this kind of thing from male punters' conversations ALL THE TIME. Yes, even the "nice" ones.

And I'm sorry for those transwomen who have to wait 2 years to go through a process to get a GRC or whatever one of the transwomen after you on the JOB show was saying, but surely those couple of years are a vital part of experiencing what it is to be a woman who wants to get changed in a public space - you can't just strip off or go to the loo anywhere, it can be inconvenient and embarrassing and I don't think it is unfair to expect someone to wait and be patient if they want to be accepted into vulnerable spaces.

It’s not when they hate us, it’s because they hate us. :/

And I hate to say it, but you’ll get our message across to many, many more people by being polite, reasonable and calm.

And for the 9000th time this week, I’m applauding you, this time for your OP. 😀

I say most definitely go in calm.

Furthermore, I think it always comes across badly when an interviewee attacks the interviewer or style of interview.

However, I also think that most interviewers want to do a good job and don't want to exhibit subconscious bias (they are happy to be biased deliberately of course). Perhaps you could contact theor researchers in advance, ideally by email, to point out the bias that creeps in that you pointed out above.

I am going to bring up how I've spoken on other shows and been belittled and then had TIMs given the final word. ManFriday is talking about women's safety and dignity, and having it mansplained as not a problem without the right of reply actually proves how much we need this movement.

Maybe some of us should contact the show in advance to point out how this scenario often plays out and could they please break the mould etc

In every place I have worked from the age of 16, bar none, men have ranked female colleagues in precisely the same way. Starting at the Middlesbrough glue factory, where the female employees comprised a scary, snaggle-toothed hag who was a kind of seneschal in the warehouse, and a thyroidic typist with the girth of the Transporter Bridge and a perspiration issue. It didn’t matter. They were ranked just the same. If you had to, who would you choose?

This is the thing with men: we make do with what we have. Women aren’t like that. It was the same when I worked in the shadow cabinet corridor for the Labour Party, even if the men had to be a long way from the office and a bit pissed before they divulged their own lists. But they still had their lists, believe me.

This is what Rod Liddle was saying in the ST (in reference to the ad exec who emailed his list round the company when he was leaving).

This is the reality when it comes to the question of DIGNITY (as well as safety) and why women do not want to be in a position where any person can just decide they want to use the women's facilities unchallenged.

Women need private spaces when in a state of undress, changing tampons, washing out moon cups etc. where we have some respite from the male gaze. If a man goes through the process of taking hormones for a couple of years, even if he doesn't have surgery, (and I think I've read that it takes 2-5 years for oestrogen to reduce sex drive and penis) to become a transwoman then, ok, they are showing a commitment but without that then surely they are still a man in every sense of the word and shouldn't be in women's spaces?

I've used this example before on threads like this ...a few years ago Pete Burns was on Celebrity Big Brother with Sylvester Stallone's mother Jackie . He was vile to her and to another glamorous model type woman. - sorry can't remember who now _ and it was obvious that jealousy and spite were his motivation - he was a caricature of them and became more so later in his life . Many TIM absolutely hate women , as some drag artists used to , for being what they yearn to be but know they never will be , so ridicule and caricature the object of hatred and desire .
As for Sweary I absolutely salute you and your efforts - yes keep cool and calm - but also sadly I think women's fears will not have as much weight as men's fears for the effect of predatory males on 'their' women - daughters girlfriends wives exposed legally to a fully male bodied self identified woman in vulnerable spaces . If you have a male interviewer ask him how he would feel if his daughter was undressing next to a male bodied person and could not legally object, as this is where it's heading. . Good luck .

Even when the opposing idea has been completely discredited the BBC tend to invite somebody on to argue the toss.

Unfortunately most people haven’t really thought through issues around self ID (hence irrelevant comparisons to gay rights), so it’s sadly not surprising that the discussion isn’t well informed yet.

Well done for starting to change that though sweary

SwearyG you are doing an amazing job. Really.

What struck me listening to the JOB interview is that women are being forced to defend not only this position against self-ID, but also the very need for sex segregation in the first place.

If I was brave enough to do what you are doing - and I am not! - I would try to turn it back on the interviewer. Do you agree that changing rooms where people are naked should be segregated by sex? Do you agree that men and women should be put into separate prisons? Do you agree that men and women need different sporting events?

None of this is new! Male and female only spaces are needed for these situations, because of male violence and because women are weaker than men. NAMALT etc, but as a society we agree the risk to women is enough to warrant segregation in these situations. Not all men are rapists, but all rapists are men.

If we can agree on that, why on earth would saying the magic words 'I identify as a woman' be enough to say that risk no longer exists?