Why are TIMs colonising womanhood when they hate us?

[SwearyG]

I am so angry right now that I don't think I'm going to make sense. TIMs hate us don't they - at least the TRA ones. They hate us. Everything we say logically and calmly and evidence based is just denied, minimised and ridiculed. It seems that we're collateral damage in the battle for them to appropriate womanhood. They don't care how many of us are raped, abused, assaulted, belittled, etc. As long as they get to set the agenda and rewrite the fucking world where nobody can exist without them being centred.

I have just listened to the World Service this morning where they took my points about dignity and consent and said I was being ridiculous and trans people, indeed men, aren't a threat to women and that it's the same as denying gay rights. I can't even come up with a coherent argument to that because it's so ludicrous.

Woman means something, I'm buggered if I'm giving it up without a fight and I'm also buggered if I'm going to pretend that male violence isn't a problem.

Why do they hate us?

Must admit I don't vary my route home and will go running alone in the dark quite happily but probably wouldn't have when I lived in London. I felt the conversation got derailed in to "men are dangerous" rather than men pretending to be women to get in to women's safe areas and sports. His use of statistics was rubbish though.

He just doesn't have a clue. If he had ANY idea how most women live their lives trying to avoid male attack I think he would have reacted very differently. #metoo hasn't got through evidently.

Given the way he led the interview surely trans women being too afraid to use men's facilities is also sexist and unfounded?

I listened to the show as a trans woman and think you did well to keep calm and say what you believed.

So did Joanne, though it was a shame that she has done nothing about her voice and was very inexperienced.

But the presenter was awful and let you both down by going off on his own little man rant. He totally shifted the story to him and failed as a presenter.

You and Joanne could have had an interesting discussion on point if he had let you. But he turned into all about him.

Very sad, but not at all your fault.

He had an agenda. 'As a gay guy who had to sacrifice my job at the BBC for standing up for minority rights. '

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Big_Brother_17_housemates_(UK)#Andy

Oh, and having been a trans woman since 1973 and living in the area where the Yorkshire Ripper was active I learned pretty early about where not to walk and who not to make eye contact with and reasons to be fearful in appropriate circumstances.

He really has no clue.

Like most men I know Bore he expects a star and a sticker if he ever does anything that might benefit other people too. Lets send him a sheet of 'good boy' stickers for his valiant actions.

I thought he got his gay thing in there to deflect criticism. Relevance? None.

It's clearly his thing though, standing up for minorities.

If he ever shows up at my daughters’ school to teach girls to “have a voice” I’ll implode

*daughter’s
(pedant)

Was hoping to have finished an hour or so ago at least and been listening in my PJs but am still working,

Sounds like the guy was an absolute prick from comments here though.

I think that's partly why Lucy Masuod did so well this morning - a) the presenter was a pro and b) they gave Lucy the last word.

Sweary, I will listen but whatever you feel about how the conversation went YOU are responsible for getting the conversation out there in the first place and that is HUGE.

Witchbitch - I do not know Joanne circumstances as he never bothered to ask her anything meaningful either.

But if she only transitioned a year ago it will be very hard and that did come over that she was wary of spaces. We got told nothing about how she is transitioning or her physical status but that early you would assume she might still have a long way to go.

In those circumstances she probably would use single cubicle spaces wherever possible. But if she is under medical supervision and transitioning physically and towards surgery (we were given no clue by poor questioning) it is part of the treatment programme to at some point when you would be confident of not causing offence to successfully integrate in places like a women's toilet. As you would obviously do at some point post physical transition.

In that half way house you are really vulnerable these days I would expect (it was easier 45 years ago when there was hardly any awareness of transsexuals and next to none of us around).

But there comes a point where no trans woman could possibly be safe walking into a men's toilet dressed as and looking like a woman. And post surgery, of course, it would be putting yourself at risk of rape.

Without a Gender Recognition Certificate, which Joanne cannot have at this point (and only 5000 have anywhere) there would be no legal access and it would be down to tolerance and lack of identification as trans - something we cannot judge at a distance.

She appeared genuine and sincere and I wish her well, But she has a way to go and I hope she is getting the right medical help. Of which again we were told nothing.

But you were fair and courteous in return. Nobody could ask more.

Jaycee I understand what you are saying and am sympathetic. But the issue that Sweary and most of the rest of us are objecting to is the idea of self-ID and the potential to abuse the system. We do know that men as a group are a risk to us. And we also know that some people are already abusing the self-ID that some organisations are already adopting.

I'm just saying that the argument that men are a potential threat to us is dismissed when women say it but not when trans women use it when used to try and further this debate. The argument cannot be valid for some sections of society but not others.

@Jayceedove do you think it would help actual gender dysphoric trans people if they could apply for some kind of a medical gender identity card. Which would confirm they are transitioning and aren't just attempting to access the wrong facilities? Or have you never been challenged and don't think it's a problem?

I tried to make the point (and think I did before I got mansplained to) that TIMs will be in danger from predatory men with Self ID as it is implemented in guidance like SwimEngland etc. We need to stop pussyfooting about and name the fucking problem. Male violence. And bastard men refusing to accept that it's a problem.

Jaycee - do you understand my feeling that, though it is unfortunate for them that transwomen have to wait a few years to get the GRC before they can freely use women's facilities, it is actually part of becoming a woman - that is, we cannot just strip off to our underpants when it's hot, or do an outdoor wee, anywhere we wish, or know whether we might have a sudden onset gush of menstrual blood we hadn't anticipated, or have leaking breasts etc. etc. and this is the reality of what it is to be a woman: we have to plan and not bank on having convenient access to private space whenever needed. If transitioning men to women have to wait a while to be integrated into vulnerable spaces... well welcome to womanhood - it's not easy for any of us.

"Male violence. And bastard men refusing to accept that it's a problem."

It beneficial for men to deny male violence. All men.

Sweary, you did great.

Men just won't accept (be they gay/straight/trans) that the level of risk they pose to others is huge and that they, as a group, need to sort this shit out. They will argue anything rather than just say, "Well yes, you have a fair point".

DARVO

Deny
Accuse
Reverse
Victim
Offender

So the interviewer revels in his figures about women committing violence - yawn.

Witchbitch I totally understand that and have posted a lot on threads in here over the past 2 weeks agreeing with it.

I am against self ID and removing medical assessment and the other checks and balances (as are quite a few transsexuals for whom the law was created and who see all these transgender self identifiers wanting in but refusing to follow the required guidelines as too onerous).

If that happens it suddenly turns the 5000 properly medically transitioned holders of a Gender Recognition Certificate into 600,000 with all sorts of concepts of who they are and uncertainty over what kind of male parts they have.

That creates a totally different reality that the law was never created to deal with but that women will have to accommodate. It is why I signed the petition to give women a say in this. It is undeniable.

busyboys - on another thread somewhere I suggested something very similar. A provisional GRC with more restrictions as to spaces but helpful for day to day.

Two problems - it will always be about passing - and if a trans woman does not they can cause concern - and if a non trans very much a man successfully disguises he might be. That can happen with or without any act to stop them but the concept of self ID would give an air of legitimacy to that. So I think we have to draw a line and not go that far - medical transition only for access has to be a part of this for fairness all round.

The thing is too that while under the current legal situation transwomen having reached that full stage of transition have been able to use women's facilities - they're a very small group, it hasn't been an issue.

Under self ID that group stretches massively to include Uncle Tom Cobley and all. Joanne and others like her get lost in that crowd. And unless there is a very clear way to gatekeep and draw the line between the serious, committed, significantly physically transitioned and Jim who just felt a bit gender fluid this morning/is stalking the woman who just went into the changing room/gets off on sitting naked in a room full of little girls stripping off for swimming with their mums and seeing everyone get really uncomfortable - it can't work.

There has to be a line. And that means rejecting some of the massive group under the current 'umbrella' and having the guts to say these people can with this specific criteria, but these people can't, and a third space will be provided. And weathering the massive tantrums that will ensue from the TRA lobby. Otherwise my worry is, if no lines can be drawn, that women (and men once the reality of this starts to become apparent) will be forced to shift to a position of no one male born in women's spaces at all, full stop, and the transwomen who for decades have had no problem will end up losing their access.

This however would take a government with actual integrity and courage.

Cross post with Jaycee who put it much better.

Mirialis, of course I understand and agree. The delays were built in on purpose not to annoy. They are necessary to successful transition. It is wrong all round - for women - society - the transitioner - to tick a box one line and think that is enough.

It very much is not.

Well done Sweary. You have done and are doing an amazing thing- the classic "someone should do something...and that someone is me"! I bet most of us on here wish we had your courage and resolve.

It's interesting as I have had a conversantion with a group of modern lefty blokes tonight at work. They were all bar one "Remainers". They were utterly outraged at the idea of the Daniel Hannans/Michael Goves etc lying and manipulating people and then going absolutely crazy if anyone says some of those people who bought into it are thick. They were so angry that they weren't allowed to say that these people were [in their opinion] thick when they KNEW that DH and MG and BJ and co privately call them thick.

It wasn't my place or time to say anything - and this isn't about whether you are pro-Brexit or not - but it really jarred with me because these were exactly the kind of unthinking woke lefty men who will tell us "Transwomen are women" and see us being transphobic (aka a version of homophobic) because we are not allowed to say "FFS they are MEN and we will accept ones who've been through full hormone treatment for a couple of years at the least into our vulnerable and exposed spaces but please don't berate us for saying they are men because on the sly YOU also believe they are men."