Why are TIMs colonising womanhood when they hate us?

[SwearyG]

I am so angry right now that I don't think I'm going to make sense. TIMs hate us don't they - at least the TRA ones. They hate us. Everything we say logically and calmly and evidence based is just denied, minimised and ridiculed. It seems that we're collateral damage in the battle for them to appropriate womanhood. They don't care how many of us are raped, abused, assaulted, belittled, etc. As long as they get to set the agenda and rewrite the fucking world where nobody can exist without them being centred.

I have just listened to the World Service this morning where they took my points about dignity and consent and said I was being ridiculous and trans people, indeed men, aren't a threat to women and that it's the same as denying gay rights. I can't even come up with a coherent argument to that because it's so ludicrous.

Woman means something, I'm buggered if I'm giving it up without a fight and I'm also buggered if I'm going to pretend that male violence isn't a problem.

Why do they hate us?

Kneedeep - I think fortunately the message has got across and I suspect we will find the self ID changes have been quietly shelved for now as the government have enough problems and misjudged the reaction from women.

It will no doubt not go away for good but if more and more transsexuals speak out against going too far then that might help get across that the people they wrote the GRA for are fine with it as it stands.

And if the ones who are not are serious then the have a simple way to go forward. Follow the rules that exist to get a GRC. Nothing stopping them. If they believe they are who they say they are it shiuld not even be an issue.

The fact that it is for so many unless all the barriers are removed suggests they are not sure they could pass through.

The Equality also needs looking at as the subtle switch away from the original qualification for access via the GRA - Gender Reassignment (medical and surgical transition) has morphed into the far more loose Gender Identity. Which can mean anything between full transition and none.

That needs more focus than the GRA is getting because that is what controls the most sensitive spaces such as refuges and those have to be protected still as now.

Mirialis, what I said upthread, if all men admitted and accepted that male violence and sexual assault was a male problem things might change. But so many won't. It's not that they don't see and smell the bullshit, they do, but they're not prepared to do anything to bring about change. Too much effort required and too much scary personal responsibility. Easy to rant about politicians as a group, but not so their own sex.

Men know totally well that TIM aren't women. I've yet to see any man treat MIT like they do women.

Men just can't cope with the idea of women having opinions, or power or the ability to say no.

For the He-Man Woman Haters Club it is a perfect opportunity to drive women out of the public sphere in the name of equality for all.

Wich - yes and I just knew (and I was working in a capacity where it wasn't my place - whether male or female - to step in) that if I had said, well hang on, you are outraged that you are not allowed to say something you THINK is fact (i.e. x type of people are thick and the men running the show know that but are happy to use that as a weapon to close you down) but what do you think think about us saying what we KNOW for a fact, that is sex - apart from a tiny number of people who are born with mixed biology and are generally and involuntarily sterile so this is not something that is passed on - is binary.

And you know that transwomen are not women and transmen are not men, so why on earth are we all being expected to say otherwise for fear of being "transphobic".

TRA current tactic is "this is a fake news argument, women support us apart from a lunatic fringe of rad fems and Tory homophobes"... just, no.

Honestly, do any of us really mind if a transexual who has been through years of hormones/surgery wants to use a private cubicle (if they still have a penis) in the female facilities? Not so much I don't think (though some on here feel differently). But don't alter the law to the extent that ANYONE can say "I feel like I need to use these facilities" and also to the extent that we are wrong for thinking that these are males that we can accept on the basis that they have undergone a serious and committed process to alter their biology.

These are the great grandsons of the men who burned the first women's public toilet in London to the ground.

Rocking. “Disagreeing is not disliking” he wants to discuss my viewpoint further. Except I don’t think he did any listening so I think he can fuck off. And the passive aggressive kiss can get to fuck!

Well he feels it would be nice to talk more so why doesn't he pop on here for a chat?

Sweary, I salute you.

That depends on what you are disagreeing about, dunnit? Cuz there are a few things I can think of where disagreeing is calling to police because of disliking.

Honestly sweary - if he wants to chat more tell him you'll set up a thread just for him where he can do a Q&A. Tell him we'd love to talk more and explore the issue but you personally have done loads and you mustn't get ground down by doing solo on this all the time.

I thought I’d be quite distressed about tonight but I actually think he showed himself up quite remarkably. Yes, it was a shitshow but I didn’t get angry, or Sweary and I made the point it wasn’t a trans thing. He selectively quoted a few lines of a retweet when I said that it wasn’t about trans. He’s a nasty little misogynist and had a good old bleat about how it was mean for people to tell him that when I’d had an onslaught of NAMALT and WATM.

I really don’t think I’m the one who came out badly from this.

And he did retweet someone calling me transphobic, who I’m blocked from but can see via DH before he sent the “let discuss” patronising message. Does he think I’m as stupid as he is?

They think that "sexy submissive fucktoy" is what a woman is, or at least what it should be. That's why they hate women who have no interest at all in fulfilling that stereotype most of all.

(And then they hate the ones who do too, for being better at it than they are.)

The person who said that they see us as the gatekeepers of sex was right on. That type of man barely notices woman who aren't fuckable, so to him woman - fuckable young woman = you have so many sexual options and I have none and that's not fair! There's a blogger on Tumblr who calls them trancels (trans + incel) and that's pretty much it for the rainbow stockings/anime icon/"lesbian"/bash a TERF variety of TIM. They think they can identify into being sexually appealing to a large number of people. And when that inevitably doesn't work they throw tantrums and try to manipulate and bully people into pretending that it did.

Because we're not the porny sexualised version of womanhood they want us to be and we keep offensively reminding them of that fact.

I joined twitter a year or 2 ago when starting to question the trans narrative and wanted a different voice from just mumsnet’s mostly gender critical tone. Tbh, i was shocked with what i found. The narcissistic delusion of so many transwomen, the attention serking, the constant selfies, the porn, the über sexualised clothes and poses, their BDSM, their dominatrixes - I honestly didn’t expect it to the extent that i found as I often check out folk who comment on threads as i try to avoid discussion with vulnerable confused kids and folk with serious depression/obvious mh issues.

Yesterday a TW boasted to Shon Faye how they’ve been using femsle loos and only had a few dirty looks. This is a 7ft male who wears a bright red wig and highly attention seeking sexualised clothing. Absolutely no concern or it seems idea how intimidating they might seem to females in a closed space like a loo.

My guess, Sweary is that after the show he's thought a bit about what was said. People have got so used to chanting 'trans women are women' in the certainty that they're on the right side of history.

Now that the madness of the transcult ideologies (note, I do not been trans folk I mean the transcult TRA/MRA zealots) is being exposed people are beginning to question their certainty about 'the right side of history'. But people have been so indoctrinated into transcult ideology that their default position is to defend it. He's reiterated the old 'poor trans people/nasty rad fems' but I suspect he's having second thoughts.

And no-one wants to be on the wrong side of history do they? I suspect we'll see quite a few people do U-turns on this.

mean not been!

Lostart - not entirely sure you include transsexual women in what you call TIMs, but I am assuming so from wider context of this thread.

In which case plenty of men do have relationships with us in a heterosexual sense and treat us much like they do other women.

I met my partner six months after I had GRS and he invited me out for a drink. We had a good night. Then he invited me for a meal. Nice too. Then he invited me to meet his parents (he lived some distance from me so it involved me staying). I agreed but decided now was the moment to tell him about myself.

He met me off the train and I asked if we could go for a walk first and it was a lovely Summers night and he wanted to kiss. I said that first I had something to tell him. The hardest thing I ever had to do.

We sat quietly for a while - then he kissed me - and said, come on and meet my family.

After that weekend and taking him to meet my family too I said that now we had to tell his family, and he said, not yet. I need time to explain. So I gave him time.

Trouble was he always wanted more. We became very close and the relationship developed. I explained we could not marry but he wanted to live together. So I moved to his area, we started saving for a house and lived for six months with his large family.

Over and over I asked to let me tell them and he said he was scared of them saying something to make him drop me. It got ever more awkward as his mum and sisters kept asking about wedding plans and if we wanted a baby as they could see how close we were. I just told them the truth - could not have kids - we were not considering marriage yet. But it started to be a problem for me not saying.

Even when we were out with friends my friends knew, his didn't as he would not even tell them.

We bought a house together, got a priest to do a blessing (telling the priest of course - but I found out years later he told the priest not to talk to his family).

Things went well and we were happy for quite a few years but I had been published by now and had a local radio show too. I kept telling him that this might lead to the press finding out as I had told everyone I worked with about being trans and his family were almost the only ones who did not know by now and we just had to talk to them before that happened.

But again it was a no. Then, I went away for a couple of days promoting a book and he could not come this time (he came with me to many events, including a Leicester Square premiere of a movie I was involved with). When I got back he had a strange girl upstairs in his bedroom - who ran out the front door as soon as I entered.

We had our first big row and I told him I was going home to stay with my parents for a few days whilst we both calmed down. He phoned up, came round, pleaded with me to return and I said only if we could talk to his family. He said no. I said well until you do then we can meet up but we cannot live together again. Just let us come clean before the press get wind.

Not long after a tabloid called me to say they were doing a story about me the next day and would I talk to them. I said only if they gave me a few days to resolve some private matters first, then yes I would. These were, of course, to go and make clear we now had to talk to his family. And I also had to with my brother tell his two children at primary school who had never known me as anything but their aunty as I transitioned years before they were born and we were going to tell them when old enough as back then this was not something kids at school knew anything about let alone acted on and we all felt that was the right approach.

Of course, the paper refused so published a half true tale with some photo they must have got by tailing me as I have no idea where it came from.

I bet you can guess the rest. My fiancé claimed it was the first he ever knew and that I had deceived him for years and he set his father and older brother round to threaten my family with violence unless I signed over the house.

Of course, I did. And it hurt for a long time and after that I stayed away from forming any relationships as a result - just had a few dalliances with guys who I told up front but could not ever trust to do the same.

So, yes, men can and do treat trans women pretty horribly. He was not a bad man. Just scared of public reaction and what his family might say, I think.

There was a nice sequel, but I will not share that here for now.

Jaycee that's truly awful, I am so sorry you had to go through that. What a massive breach of trust to experience. I'm sorry but he was a bastard and a coward. How a person can do that to any other human being is beyond me.

Jaycee What an utter bastard!

I think an element of good old fashioned 'male control'.

Possibly think women are rubbish at being women and need to be shown how to do it properly. (In some cases, not all obviously).

Pete Burns for sure with the competitive need for attention from other males.

Thank you all, but it was a different time then, of course, the 70s and 80s. This was not a subject in the pubic eye and there was no social media to let everyone have an opinion. Most people never came across or even heard of it at all if they missed the rare tabloid tittle tattle.

It was rare enough to easily get confused and worried over when it entered your life unexpectedly.

So, yes, it hurt at the time. But the house situation was resolved and he even later came to see me when I was in hospital as my gall bladder packed in (a now known side effect of high doses of premarin).

That was the last time I saw him and whilst I could never forget I tried to see why it was so difficult for him as well and came to terms.

Trans relationships are never going to be smooth and simple and rarely work out like that BBC sitcom Boy Meets Girl.

In the real world - as you are all realising - trans complicates lots of things and makes us have to see two sides of everything and the implications for those around you which could have very different consequences to any that you foresee.

So I have long since come to terms with the realisation that being trans means you have to compromise with life and see it from other people's perspective too, not just your own,

All relationships are like that really. Trans ones just with an added X (X Y ) factor.

The trick is to let experiences help shape you as a person and hopefully become better for it.

This is why I find all those out there who demand and insist that everyone should see it their way and if not you are a bigot hard to understand. That approach seems so one sided and lacking in awareness that you are not the only one involved in what good sense should tell you is pushing the boundaries of life for many around you. Being aware of that frees you from blaming others and should help breed tolerance.

I hope.

Be careful who you trust

Interesting. And here I was wondering if I was being unkind for thinking the male always has to center themselves, as sad as their narrative is, who hasn't been done over by a man? If I was into oppression Olympics I'd need to write a novel to cover how men have invaded every part of myself and my life, but then I'm not looking for cookies.

Some of us just want to be left alone and to live in peace from the ever present threat of violence from men. They will never get this or they get off on it somehow. Anyway back to lurking

Daisy Drip, I have not hidden that I have posted on that forum and if you check my posts on Angels over weeks and months you will find that I have taken the same stance on self ID there as I have on here.

And had some criticism for it.

You will also find that I also said on there exactly what I said on here about last nights radio programme.

I have for the past three years posted extensively on trans matters on Digital Spy too - and you are more than welcome to check out what I have said on there and you will find I have been saying all the same things there for a long time. Not just for effect or recently on here.

If I was trying to hide anything I would hardly be using the same username for all three sites.

I don't have anything to hide. Angels is not an activists forum and does carry critical comment from trans people who are not looking for a fight.

If you are upset about my finding odd some of the ideas you have about why trans men are invading womanhood, well from my perspective they are odd.

I don't have a problem with your suggesting them. You should not have a problem with others disagreeing.

Aussie Girl I will happily leave you alone. I have invested a lot of time on this forum in recent weeks because I am serious about getting this message across.

And it has to be got across to other trans people too, because there are people there equally culpable of creating a battle when we need that to be defused.

So I am going to keep saying that on Angels and Digital Spy too.

That's all I intend to say. Believe what you wish. However, nothing I have posted is untrue.