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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Man Friday hits the news!

502 replies

NotAWhacktivist · 18/03/2018 00:55

This doesn't seem to have been posted yet. Hats off to this women (she has posted here about her efforts)

Topless swimmer wades into trans row
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9a8e437c-2a35-11e8-8cd0-05c64066237c

OP posts:
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MargeH · 18/03/2018 20:25

Just sending this to our local Turkish baths, where "swimwear is required on the mixed sessions" Wink

I would be grateful if you could clarify your policy on gender recognition. Are transwomen, (TIMs) including those who have not undergone gender reassignment surgery, ie still have their male genitalia, welcome to join the Ladies only session?

And vice versa, naturally, as regards to transmen (TIFs)

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/topless-woman-male-only-swimming-pool-protest-gender-recognition-act-amy-desir-dulwich-south-london-a8261801.html

#manfriday

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights

Swim England seem to think it's OK.

www.swimming.org/swimengland/guide-engaging-trans-people-swimming/

I doubt I'll get a reply, but at least it might raise awareness.

TerfsUp · 18/03/2018 20:38

Thanks for the ES link, Yes.

2rebecca · 18/03/2018 20:43

The ES "read more" section shows they don't subscribe to the transwomen are women cult

Mamaryllis · 18/03/2018 20:44

That @notcursedE blatantly tweeted that anyone can legal recognition anyway by lying hard enough. Yes. We know. That’s why we don’t want to make it any easier. Doh!

2rebecca · 18/03/2018 20:47

Interesting the female impersonator brigade lack the self awareness to realise the misogyny of a cunt blocker list shows they hate women and don't have minds that resemble women's in the slightest

Triliteration · 18/03/2018 20:54

Just for I presume questions?

Ummmm.... no., I stated a few facts.

Fortunately, Thanks to the power of Mumsnet, I immediately blocked the person who added me and was thus removed from the lists again.

AnotherQuoll · 18/03/2018 21:01

So the frantically offended "Owl" and "Fox" Fisher are non-binary trans, blah-di blah. ie. Man with long hair and woman with facial hair in heterosexual relationship. Brave. Stunning. Etc.

CadyHeron · 18/03/2018 21:02

Ummmm.... no., I stated a few facts.

They don't seem to like them either.
Interesting how they never debate, and just shout "TERF!" and press delete, isn't it....
Why can't you question/factually state biological sex being a thing? Could it be.... because once you start doing so,it makes an utter nonsense of the whole self ID thing.
The two ladies (sorry, men) were only self ID'ing. Which is what people are wanting.
Why is it stupid or bigoted when it gets spun around? Should work both ways, surely....

Belindabauer · 18/03/2018 21:03

Well done to those women.

HairyBallTheorem · 18/03/2018 21:05

Wait... there's a literal "cunt blocker" on twitter now? And we're all supposed not to notice how massively misogynistic this is? Wow.

Ereshkigal · 18/03/2018 21:11

Anyone with an Independent account, the comments are awful. You may want to get on there to redress the balance a bit.

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 18/03/2018 21:12

Good Evening Standard article (thanks Yes)

Actually, I get the feel that Mark Basket(sp?), the contract manager from the Dulwich centre is very aware of the ridiculous position that Swim England have put them in.

NoSquirrels · 18/03/2018 21:19

Yeah - good to see the manager’s response juxtaposed with the Swim England advice.

hairycoo · 18/03/2018 21:22

Do you think it needs a male to identify a woman (for one day) and walk about starkers in some exclusive posh all women changing area (is there one where prominent political women or wives of prominent male figures frequent) to really get the point across? Those with the power in charge of self id, do you think they would accept their wives/sisters/mothers seeing a female penis or even though they are promoting self id, just dont think that a female penis will ever be swung their way so to speak?

WorriedandTerfy · 18/03/2018 21:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Triliteration · 18/03/2018 21:27

They don't seem to like them either.

No. I was quite to the point! Actually I’m amazed I haven’t had more negativity. I’ve had the most likes and retweets I’ve ever had.

Just off now to look at the frothers listed upthread, assuming I can still see them.

And yes, a Cunts blocker list is rather misogynistic!

NoSquirrels · 18/03/2018 21:27

@hairycoo
in some exclusive posh all women changing area

Actually I think it needs to be in a well-used grotty council service in an area with many users who are from a religious or cultural background that prohibits men.

I’d feel genuinely sorry for those women, but it would get attention from a section of society who’d be quite vocal about the end of sec segregation.

hairycoo · 18/03/2018 21:32

@Nosquirrels, yes that would probably make more sense. It would be harsh doing that, but surely better to make people aware of the potential consequences whilst they still have a chance to stop it before legislation is put in place (and extremely difficult to undo).

SwearyG · 18/03/2018 21:45

Please don’t send your DHs into women’s swims. TRAs do that already. Go to the men’s swim/changing room at the posh club or the grotty one where you’re likely to have more misogynists (in both, actually) than right on Dulwich. Women stop going to events when they object to them, and misogynistic men will stop their wives from attending if we send bepenised people in. We need to get the men to object to women in their spaces.

The Standard article suggests that Dulwich (and the rest of the group) is revisiting its guidance as a result of our visit. This is what we want - a pushback against the ridiculousness of Swim England’s guidelines. We don’t want being split on gender identity rather than sex to become the norm.

If everyone can hit the changing rooms in M&S, Topman, Primark etc where they’ve gone gender neutral and tweet the companies that we’re #manfriday in them every Friday we might get someone to realise that people are cross. Getting men into women’s spaces and deterring women from taking up services is not the answer.

NoSquirrels · 18/03/2018 21:50

@SwearyG
Women stop going to events when they object to them, and misogynistic men will stop their wives from attending if we send bepenised people in. We need to get the men to object to women in their spaces.

You’re right, of course. Fucking typical woman, always thinking of others feelings Wink

But yes - it would stop women in the groups that dearly need these spaces coming back. So let’s not do that.

I want a fair deal for everyone.

EllieMe · 18/03/2018 21:59

So much frothing from the TWAs. They are indistinguishable in many ways from MRAs. Logical that they would be. Their hatred of women is showing.

All because we are everything they can never be, no matter how much they stamp and shout. We're women. Born that way, effortlessly existing that way.

And they just aren't.

SwearyG · 18/03/2018 22:01

NoSquirrels curse our consideration for others. I feel really scribbly about how I caused consternation on Friday night. There was one chap who I spoke to afterwards who was rather distressed at the lack of his expected woman-free space and the disruption to the order in his life (I suspect MH issues) and I really felt awful for spoiling something he clearly did for his pleasure/comfort. I’m sure others are worried about their bodies, as some women might be, and making them feel uncomfortable was horrible for me. I felt a right bastard. But it is the way to get heard, as we will (hopefully) see when we’re not allowed back.

Waddlelikeapenguin · 18/03/2018 22:04

What about taking a man to women only session but blindfold them so they are there to raise awareness without actually offending anyone?
Obviously no swimming though!

CadyHeron · 18/03/2018 22:13

I've been browsing FB and Twitter,and know that there are some out there reading this and going mad and calling us all bigots, transphobes TERFS, Just to make it clear that I have no issue whatsoever with trans people.
If you've transitioned into a female, that's fair enough. I respect you as a woman.
This whole self ID thing is insane though, and the two are getting conflated I think.
I have an issue with the seemingly trying to erase biology to fit an ideal/agenda.
Biology exists. Rants on Twitter about being pregnant- I'm sorry,but if you're pregnant, YOUR BODY IS STILL FEMALE then and that is a fact,not hateful feminists talking rubbish.
I've been on here years and always avoided the feminist boards as I thought it was full of men hating loonies (sorry lol)
but this? Nope. Fucking important for women to wake up and start seeing that they are trying to be erased biologically - women have penises too, don't you know.
Biology apparently doesn't seem to come into it and it's quite scary how so many in RLare oblivious. No wonder there's a no debate and shout down everyone as bigots for daring to question.

LightofaSilveryMoon · 18/03/2018 22:13

Amy and Hannah,
Been following this, totally engrossed, all day on various media and social media.
Sincere thanks for all that you have done, and are doing.
You have really shoved the Overton Window en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window over in our direction, in a big way!
Respect and gratitude
My best wishes to you!