Victoria Derbyshire today and Girlguides

[AgnesBadenPowell]

Did anyone see Victoria Derbyshire on BBC2 this morning? Interesting discussion about transgender people and self ID. One of the speakers mentioned Girlguiding, which caught my attention as I am a Leader and I’ve had similar concerns but few people to discuss it with IRL.

You might have seen the press coverage (and threads here) about the changes to Girlguiding UK’s policy on inclusivity for transgender members

As a leader it’s my duty to implement the policy. I also have a duty of care to the girls in my unit. I’ve thought long and hard about this and in my view, GG has got it wrong.

GGUK recognises gender self identity, which is “a person’s inner sense of being a girl or a woman”. A male child who identifies as a girl can enroll as a rainbow, brownie, guide or ranger and a male who identifies as a woman can make the Guide promise and become a leader. Leadership roles have historically been women only (although men can volunteer for support roles that don’t need the promise and aren’t in charge of units).

The policy states that transgender children should use the accommodation of their acquired gender on camp. Parents of other children should not be informed - leaders are told it is neither required or best practice. Remember that Guiding also permits adult leaders (including men who identify as women) to share accommodation with children; it’s not the preferred option and at least 2 adults should always be present in the tent or guide hut but it does happen.

I have written to GGUK to outline my concerns:

1. the policy allows, for example, a 14 yo biological male Guide to share sleeping accommodation with a 10 year old female Guide.NSPCC advice is that children over 10 do not share a bedroom with the opposite sex. It’s not unreasonable for parents to expect GG to follow this advice. Why aren’t we?

1. The policy does not acknowledge the embarrassment a teen may feel when dealing with periods, washing and bathing in shared facilities with a person they may have known as a boy.

1. The policy is focused on the needs of the transchild and their preferences. As a Leader I have a duty to all children in my care and must balance each of their needs. Only in reference to changing clothes does the policy state that all children should be offered a more private place to change if desired, otherwise transchildren chose what facilities they use with no reference to their fellow guides.

1. If GG cannot guarantee truly single sex accommodation then some girls will miss out on residentials, eg girls from certain religious groups, those who have been subjected to abuse or who just don’t want to. This is against GG’s inclusive ethos

So far GG has responded with (template?) emails to say that GG has always been a single gender organisation, gender identity (as defined above) is recognised as separate from biological sex and Leaders should refer concerned parents to the higher ups.

Today’s TV show made me wonder how many people really understand the implications of the policy and have similar concerns. Leaders can't discuss other children with parents (rightIy so) but that means parents can't give informed consent to their child sharing mixed sex facilities. I'd like to gauge the feeling of parents but it's a sensitive issue and not something that I can just ask my girls’ parents. Perhaps you think I am over reacting. Perhaps you share my concerns. Either way, I’d like to know.

Finally, I should add that I’m not trying to have transgirls removed from GG. Neither do I think all men/boys are potential sex offenders. But I do owe it to the parents and children in my care to have assessed all the risks thoroughly. My point is that this policy poses a risk, which doesn't appear to be recognised by GG and Leaders aren't being advised how to manage it.

I do have to pop out for a bit now but will come back later, if anyone replies!

This was a 2nd email i had from GGHQ, when i responded that GG had always geen a single SEX organisation and THIS policy changed that to single gender;

Dear Xxxxxx

Thank you for your email.

The Equality and Diversity policy is a clarification of our equality and diversity practices. This is not a change in how we run as an organisation, but a written clarification to ensure consistency across the organisation.

Girlguiding complies with the requirements of the Equality Act 2010 which makes clear that organisations providing single-sex services such as Girlguiding should treat people according to their acquired gender. As such, and in line with our values of inclusion, we welcome any young person who self-identifies as a girl or young woman.

Subject to Girlguiding’s recruitment processes, any adult is able to undertake a volunteer role relevant to the gender that they identify as.

All of our guidance and supporting information can be found on the inclusion pages of our website.

Best wishes

Xxxxxx Xxxxxxx

Head of Membership Recruitment and Retention

And, when i wouldnt let it lie....

Dear Xxxxxxx,

Following my email to you on 15 February, I have now spoken to the relevant teams and in a position to provide you with our reply:

You are correct in that we had a telephone conversation with Xxxc xxxxxx at the NSPCC, about the safeguarding and welfare of all our young members, our Equality and Diversity policy and more specifically supporting our transgender members. The conversation was undertaken as an informal sharing of knowledge and not a formal meeting so we are unable to share any notes from that discussion, as none were taken on our part.

We are confident that those representatives from the NSPCC consider our inclusion of transgender young people in our activities does not place any child at a disadvantage or pose a safeguarding risk to those young members directly or any other children within Girlguiding.

We have in previous communications signposted you to the resources and guidance that we have online around inclusion and transgender members specifically, and would also add that we are regularly contacted by leaders and volunteers about ensuring that all young people are able to access guiding. And we respond to those requests for support and advice on a case by case basis, and will always work to ensure that all young people are welcomed, supported and given equal access to the amazing activities that we offer.

With regards to the scenario about your daughter that you presented, we advise and support leaders in any circumstance where a young person wishes or requires alternative sleeping arrangements to meet those needs on a case by case basis. There may be a number of situations where a young person wishes or requires alternative accommodation. This would be the same for any young person, for example: if there is a young member who requires assistance in the night, on the basis of faith or culture, or perhaps is not comfortable in groups or shared accommodation situations. We support leaders in these and other situations to ensure that the needs of all the young people are met so that they can take part in guiding activities equally.

With regards to your question about DBS checks and autogynephilia, you are correct that all leaders and a number of other volunteer roles require a DBS check. You are also correct regarding screening for autogynephilia, as this is not a criminal offence it would not be something that a DBS check would search for or indicate.

We do not ask any volunteer or young member to disclose their sexuality, sexual orientation or preferences when joining Girlguiding, and would therefore also not ask for disclosure of autogynephilia.

Thank you again for your emails.

Kind regards,
Xxxx

Xxxx Xxxxxx

Information, Enquiries & Complaints Manager

I’m following this with growing horror. I’m nothing to do with GG except that I used to be a Guide - it was a much needed female only space that brought the best out in everyone. We had a wonderful leader who taught me that my voice was important. I will support any crowdfunder or challenge in any way I can.

if you want to make an impact I'd be putting including the names of the people who have written to you.
Its easy to come out with this stuff if you know girls play nice and won't name them

Name
Shame
and Tweet

putting including ? sorry

SemaMjinga Thank you for sharing the letter from the Head of Membership Recruitment and Retention stating “Girlguiding complies with the requirements of the Equality Act 2010 which makes clear that organisations providing single-sex services such as Girlguiding should treat people according to their acquired gender”

Why GG are ignoring, when it comes to accommodation at camps, the justified and legitimate aim of ensuring the health, safety and welfare of individuals, which is also enshrined in the Act as law.

IGG seem ignorant of objective justification. GG can justify single sex accommodation. There is a legitimate aim to ensure the health safety and welfare of biological females from biological males. It’s proportionate to have single sex accommodate on camps.

I’d help towards crowd funding the legal case.

Also, ‘ costs can be taken into account as part of the justification’ - can GG not consider the potential legal costs and fallout or are they just waiting for this to happen first. So irresponsible.

the requirements of the Equality Act 2010 which makes clear that organisations providing single-sex services such as Girlguiding should treat people according to their acquired gender”
Can someone point me to where the Act says this?

It doesnt drspouse, it is a misinterpretation...which is why it needs a legal challenge

To reassure you, we have worked with volunteers and expert organisations throughout on the policy update, reviewing our current guidance and ensuring that we are meeting best practice and current legislation

Aye morbid...that would be Gendered Intelligence. A single issue group. Which is why the rights of the girls to safety and privacy havent been a consideration. And why the law has been misinterpreted

Regarding the Equalities Act 2010;

The GGA already invoke Schedule 9 Part 1: Occupational Requirements to exclude males from GGA Group leadership. It is just as legal to exclude a transgender person from such a job.

· Schedule 23 is the exemption which allows for the provision of single-sex accommodation. Provision is also made in this exemption to exclude males with a trans-identity (adults and children) from female accommodation and facilities

· Schedule 16 gives legal provision to restrict membership of a club to 1 of the protected characteristics in the Equality Act. GG uses this to legally restrict to members of the female sex and to exclude boys. A trans-girl is not a member of the female sex (they are legally male and cannot change their legal gender until 18). A trans child is protected from discrimination based on the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. This is a different protected characteristic to sex. Being part of the group 'Gender reassignment' does not influence their membership of the other protected characteristic sex. They remain in the male category. There is no legal obligation to allow legally male trans children into a club specifically for girls. In doing so the club is no longer single-sex and so all male children should be allowed. Allowing only trans-identified male children is unfairly discriminating against non-trans-identified male children (boys)

Thank you sema
I'm still happy therefore to tell parents about the law re children and non-GRC-adults and to share my risk assessments.

"she has to take it on trust the transgirl or transwoman leader is not intending any harm"

It doesn't matter if the man or boy with an “inner sense of being a girl or a woman” (quote from GG rules) intends harm or not.

Women and girls are entitled to privacy, even from supposedly nice boys or men. The breach of privacy is the harm. The lack of a single-sex space is the harm. The gaslighting and lies and lack of consent is the harm.

How, with the current spotlight on charity safe-guarding and sex scandals, do the Guiding trustees think that they are immune?

Perhaps everyone who used to be a guide or is the parent of a guide (or prospective parent) should write to all the trustees directly? Is there a list of them floating around?

The press might be more interested than in the past, too, in the current climate.

A little fact

Gendered Intelligence have trained:

Girl Guides
The NSPCC

Make of that what you will.

"Girlguiding is an organisation for all girls and young women, based on this sense of gender identity"

How are they checking gender I'd? Rainbows starts at age 5. What about all the girls who don't "feel like a girl" but just like a person, they're out are they?

Why are they supporting the utterly regressive sexist idea of "lady brain"?

So they are now a mixed sex organisation for anyone who "feels like a girl"? Why not just come out and say it then?

GG was valuable for girls, it's a shame it's gone mixed sex. I imagine the same will happen with good girls schools.

The idea there is no safeguarding concern putting male and female teens in to sleep together is ridiculous.

I note someone mentioned upthread from private sector. Private sector people have got into a lot of charities, for various reasons, we are seeing a lot coming out now about abuses etc. Who is in charge of GG? People who love the org and care about girls, or people who are simply there as a job?

Oh and girls who think they are boys are not welcome in the Guides. So a girl who is confused about her identity (and let's be honest, probably her sexuality) has to leave her safe space, her friends, her trusted adults whilst she works it out cos it's a 'single gender' organisation.

GGA also explicitly state that with regard to trans leaders and transboys 'no evidence of transition is required'.

Their website is a laugh as they actually have a section on how they are invoking exemptions on single sex as it's an organisation for girls (honestly, look it up, I suggest everyone reads the word salad on their site) and then they can't define what a girl is.

They also have materials for working with girls about sexuality - not sure how that's going to work either (and sexual orientation is protected in EA2010 too)

What I think is fascinating is the trans kids juggernaut is mainly spearheaded by adult men who NEVER HAD dysphoria as children and didn't have it as adults. I'm not a safeguarding expert but that makes my spidey senses tingle. Plus Gendered Intelligence et al are MAKING MONEY out of this bobbins.

I have already contributed to this thread.
I was a Guide but there were no Rangers in our area so I went to Ventures.
I was at a party which was (memory is fuzzy) organised by or attended by a leader (in the TSS age range).
I was under 18 and I was sexually assaulted by another Scout.
I was also assaulted on camp by another Scout but over 18 then.
Make of that what you will.

In the letter MorbidMuch had posted - it sounds to me like they were deliberately targeted by TRA's
a lot of enquiries by people wanting to volunteer

BULLSHIT

Yes, if that is true, then it is worrying smurf

It looks like the NSPCC and girl guides have been given the biased re-education that is being fed everywhere.

Anyone who can say gender is your inner sense of being male or female, in the same breath as saying it's nothing to do with stereotypes has been force fed the Kool-Aid.

They will absolutely be niggles about this. Because they are, hopefully, not stupid. But they will not be seeing this with any kind of true clarity.

They can acknowledge autogynephilia? Do they realise that it's a fetish which directly involves members of the public, including children?

But are just throwing their hands up?

They know that there is a fetish which relies on presenting as female and being acknowledged as female, which could be a motivation to work at the guides - that is officially crap included under the trans umbrella.

Do they say the same thing about a man who they knew was hanging around the school gates? Yes, we know he would like loiter at home time, but his DBS is clean and we can't actually ask him if he's a paedophile.

The problem with this is they have been brainwashed into thinking a certain way. And now, as objections are arising, they have little recourse other than to keep parroting the same phrases.

TerfyOwl

Yes, Millwall caved. They're looking for another venue

Victoria Derbyshire has made a clip of me talking about the girl guides policy of allowing natal boys sleep with girls. It would be ideal for sharing on facebook etc to get the word out and to see who's else is worried about it.

twitter.com/VictoriaLIVE/status/970608359102545920

Hi Sema

I have been speaking with the EHRC and I believe it’s possible to ask them to intervene. They take 20 days from receipt of the request to respond.

I’d be happy to work on drafting the request with you. If you dm me I will provide you with my credentials.

I’m wondering about contacting the health and safety executive too. Not a field I have any experience in though.

Lastly I suggest sending them a letter saying you are taking legal advice. Explicitly put them on notice that if a child is abused due to their policies then they will have been grossly negligent and parents will litigate. I suggest ccing the letter to NSPCC and also the children’s minister Nadhim Zahawi and your mp.

Actually I’d be happy to draft that and share the text. Every parent here would be within their rights to send it.

I keep coming back to this thread in complete disbelief.

Every time I think I've peaked, something else happens.

The possibility of tween/teen sex resulting in pregnancy is not a safeguarding issue for the Guides.

I keep having to say it to myself and see if it sounds any less ludicrous. It doesn't.