Victoria Derbyshire today and Girlguides

[AgnesBadenPowell]

Did anyone see Victoria Derbyshire on BBC2 this morning? Interesting discussion about transgender people and self ID. One of the speakers mentioned Girlguiding, which caught my attention as I am a Leader and I’ve had similar concerns but few people to discuss it with IRL.

You might have seen the press coverage (and threads here) about the changes to Girlguiding UK’s policy on inclusivity for transgender members

As a leader it’s my duty to implement the policy. I also have a duty of care to the girls in my unit. I’ve thought long and hard about this and in my view, GG has got it wrong.

GGUK recognises gender self identity, which is “a person’s inner sense of being a girl or a woman”. A male child who identifies as a girl can enroll as a rainbow, brownie, guide or ranger and a male who identifies as a woman can make the Guide promise and become a leader. Leadership roles have historically been women only (although men can volunteer for support roles that don’t need the promise and aren’t in charge of units).

The policy states that transgender children should use the accommodation of their acquired gender on camp. Parents of other children should not be informed - leaders are told it is neither required or best practice. Remember that Guiding also permits adult leaders (including men who identify as women) to share accommodation with children; it’s not the preferred option and at least 2 adults should always be present in the tent or guide hut but it does happen.

I have written to GGUK to outline my concerns:

1. the policy allows, for example, a 14 yo biological male Guide to share sleeping accommodation with a 10 year old female Guide.NSPCC advice is that children over 10 do not share a bedroom with the opposite sex. It’s not unreasonable for parents to expect GG to follow this advice. Why aren’t we?

1. The policy does not acknowledge the embarrassment a teen may feel when dealing with periods, washing and bathing in shared facilities with a person they may have known as a boy.

1. The policy is focused on the needs of the transchild and their preferences. As a Leader I have a duty to all children in my care and must balance each of their needs. Only in reference to changing clothes does the policy state that all children should be offered a more private place to change if desired, otherwise transchildren chose what facilities they use with no reference to their fellow guides.

1. If GG cannot guarantee truly single sex accommodation then some girls will miss out on residentials, eg girls from certain religious groups, those who have been subjected to abuse or who just don’t want to. This is against GG’s inclusive ethos

So far GG has responded with (template?) emails to say that GG has always been a single gender organisation, gender identity (as defined above) is recognised as separate from biological sex and Leaders should refer concerned parents to the higher ups.

Today’s TV show made me wonder how many people really understand the implications of the policy and have similar concerns. Leaders can't discuss other children with parents (rightIy so) but that means parents can't give informed consent to their child sharing mixed sex facilities. I'd like to gauge the feeling of parents but it's a sensitive issue and not something that I can just ask my girls’ parents. Perhaps you think I am over reacting. Perhaps you share my concerns. Either way, I’d like to know.

Finally, I should add that I’m not trying to have transgirls removed from GG. Neither do I think all men/boys are potential sex offenders. But I do owe it to the parents and children in my care to have assessed all the risks thoroughly. My point is that this policy poses a risk, which doesn't appear to be recognised by GG and Leaders aren't being advised how to manage it.

I do have to pop out for a bit now but will come back later, if anyone replies!

A long time ago I worked at the GGA hq and I am very surprised at the adoption of gender instead of sex. I used to spend a lot of time defending the organisations single sex policy. Al the research shows that girls thrive in a single sex social club, when it's mixed they miss out.
As an organisation GGA has a history of being risk averse, piloting the smallest changes.
They are proud of enabling girls to meet who would not otherwise be able to do so in a mixed environment.
The organisation has a hierarchy and a decision making body which is elected.
Was this policy adopted by the members/ the Council?
The way to get this tackled is to discuss it with District Commissioners upwards and then get Region reps to lobby.
But then, if it's actually formally been adopted as policy, it will be difficult to get it reversed...

I agree going to the press would be useful. But if it's just me, then I'll be labelled a transphobic bigot and get thrown out of GG. And everything carries on as it was before. This is why I'm seeking legal advice and also why I started this thread - to see what the feeling of parents is and whether any action would be supported.

I don't want to damage GGUK - I've been a member since I was 7. I love this organisation with all my heart, and the girls (hundreds!) that I've known over the years. It pains me to see my organisation completely disregard basic safeguarding principles. I'm not going without a fight. I have often wondered if it's me that's wrong but reading your responses has made me see I'm not going mad, they are valid concerns.

By the way the organisations decision making used to be volunteer led. So the staff did not have much room for independent policy making. The chair of the Trustees will be the Chief Guide.

Agnes - its clearly not just you.

It's been in the press. I can't remember if it was the DM or The Times. It wasn't enough tbh.
It didn't generate any groundswell. It's why a petition or a legal challenge may be better. They could raise it from being a disgruntled journalist to an issue with legal, safeguarding, funding and membership implications.

As a scout leader I would like to clarify the scout association's policy on mixed sex sleeping arrangements.

This has recently been reworded and so it's worth checking that you are reading an up to date version when doing research. The policies can be found by googling scouts POR (policy, organisation and rules). Apologies I can't seem to do a link.

To get to the point: Scouts do permit mixed sex sleeping arrangements. So for example where there is only one girl on a camp it is likely that a risk assessment would place her in a tent with boys, rather than a tent alone. This would only happen after discussion and agreement with all involved parents. This has happened on 2 occasions in our group.

Similarly during an indoor camp girls would be permitted to share sleeping space with boys. This happens at our local indoor camp where there is one huge room where scouts sleep with two smaller rooms where the male and female leaders sleep separately.

It is a requirement that separate washing and changing facilities are provided.

I'm pointing out facts here, I agree with the argument of the thread and I just wanted to help those trying to take action to get the facts correct which I feel is important in order to make a strong case......

@GrimDamnFanjo as a leader I've found the policy making process to be very opaque. There's was no consultation that I was aware of. There are no all member general meetings. From where I am, GGHQ has taken on this new policy (with help from Gendered Intelligence) and imposed it on members.

People have said here that despite writing to the senior leadership, replies come back from more junior complaints handlers. Which is why I would like a face to face meeting.

It's very difficult to raise with your commissioner. I've seen firsthand Guiders being told that some penises are female and transgirls are girls. End of discussion. There's no guarantee you'll even be listened to, let alone be able to persuade county and regional commissioners to lobby against a policy which GGUK rigorously defended when the press first picked this up last year. The policy is in place and I can't see them backing down easily. What a mess.

From now on GGA is not an inclusive organisation. It is mixed sex and girls are yet again the losers.
All those campaigns about giving girls confidence to be the best they can be is out of the window.

@AgnesBadenPowell I'm just so shocked and angry about this.

www.girlscouts.org/en/faq/faq/social-issues.html a girls Scouts USA info...

@freshstart24 thanks for the clarification, really useful. I was looking at this when I did my research: members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/4228/gender-identity-supporting-young-people?cat=377,378&moduleID=10

I think Scouts do handle mixed sex residentials well. However, if there was a camp with separate tents for boys and girls, my understanding is a transgirl (born Male) could chose to use the girls tent. And my interpretation of the guidance in the link is that the suitability and risk assessments are performed in relation to the transgirl's comfort and safety. There's no reference to the rest of the group. If I've misunderstood then please do let me know, I want to be well informed.

I think the Equality and human rights commission could be interested. They can intervene without the need for legal proceedings commencing.

Will give them a ring tomorrow

I've not got any connection to GG, but I'd happily donate to a crowdfunder to test the legalities of their approach.

The bit that has pushed me over the edge is the line about girls can choose not to join if they don't like the policy

@GrimDamnFanjo that's interesting. Had a quick skim (must go to bed soon!) and note the references to what is best for all families and Girl Scouts in terms of their wellbeing and safety.

The chief Guide is not the Chair there is an interim chair called Val Elliott. Both come from private sector backgrounds.

Amanda Medler is the new chief guide (most senior volunteer), she started her five year term last week. I'd take a meeting with her or any board members - it's just that reaching them is hard.

I fully support you Op (although I'm not a member of GGA & have sons rather than daughters so not sure I'm much use, but I'd support a crowdfunding campaign).

They aren’t even consistent in their message. I’ve just looked online at the policy pages. Here the policy states Girlguiding is a single-sex organisation and that the policies must be followed. So they haven’t swapped from sex to gender and are not following their own policies.

I would also donate to a crowd fund to legally challenge this. It puts leaders in a terrible situation.

Agnesbadenp yes you have interpreted the guidance correctly- in so far as the person coupe choose to share a tent with whichever gender they identify with. However, the guidance also states that sleeping arrangements must be carefully planned, taking into account ages, needs of all parties and risks. It also states that the key principal is that all parties must be comfortable with the arrangements.

The guidance also states that wherever possible accommodation with separate changing and toilet cubicles and facilities should be used, ideally with such facilities being unisex.

As a leader I can see how incredibly complicated this all is. Personally I feel in the case of scouts which is a mixed sex organisation we can manage the situation through common sense, sensitivity and risk assessment.

My team would undoubtedly plan camps around providing a safe experience for all concerned should we have a trans member. Our current camp sites would honestly not make this easy- so we would find new ones to make it work.

The Royal Charter of the GG UK clearly says the organisation is for girls and young women. As no boy can have a GRC, how are they girls prior to any change in the law?

The reality is that letters to trustees will be answered by the CHief Execs office. But if you write to all of the trustees it will mean they raise it at the Board and may become concerned - especially if you mention the petition and reporting it to the Charity Commission re safeguarding. They will be aware of their fundamental legal responsibilities and concerned about protecting the good name of the charity. Also worth considering writing to the advisory council.

Amanda Medler is young for a chief Guide (early 50s). She was a senior volunteer when I worked there. She is very experienced at all levels. I'd hope she would be approachable. Perhaps a lot of letters might get things moving?

What worries me is that in a complete implosion of spinelessness, the girl guides will announce they are now unisex and are taking boys.

But then, the next question will still be about sleeping accommodation. Because the same guidelines will apply.

To a pp - As far as I know a GRC is irrelevant here.

This policy is covered under the equality law. Which says as soon as someone decides to transition (which can be just telling a friend), then they are to be treated as their preferred sex from there on in.

But, as I mentioned, there are exemptions. And they could be invoked. I have zero doubt that Girl Guides are under tremendous pressure from trans-lobby groups.

I mean if they can get Millwall FC to cave, what chance to the guides have?

Can't sleep now!
Ok, I'm happy to tell parents the law and that GG is ignoring it.
And share my risk assessments with them.

Wait up datun- Millwall caved?