Victoria Derbyshire today and Girlguides

[AgnesBadenPowell]

Did anyone see Victoria Derbyshire on BBC2 this morning? Interesting discussion about transgender people and self ID. One of the speakers mentioned Girlguiding, which caught my attention as I am a Leader and I’ve had similar concerns but few people to discuss it with IRL.

You might have seen the press coverage (and threads here) about the changes to Girlguiding UK’s policy on inclusivity for transgender members

As a leader it’s my duty to implement the policy. I also have a duty of care to the girls in my unit. I’ve thought long and hard about this and in my view, GG has got it wrong.

GGUK recognises gender self identity, which is “a person’s inner sense of being a girl or a woman”. A male child who identifies as a girl can enroll as a rainbow, brownie, guide or ranger and a male who identifies as a woman can make the Guide promise and become a leader. Leadership roles have historically been women only (although men can volunteer for support roles that don’t need the promise and aren’t in charge of units).

The policy states that transgender children should use the accommodation of their acquired gender on camp. Parents of other children should not be informed - leaders are told it is neither required or best practice. Remember that Guiding also permits adult leaders (including men who identify as women) to share accommodation with children; it’s not the preferred option and at least 2 adults should always be present in the tent or guide hut but it does happen.

I have written to GGUK to outline my concerns:

1. the policy allows, for example, a 14 yo biological male Guide to share sleeping accommodation with a 10 year old female Guide.NSPCC advice is that children over 10 do not share a bedroom with the opposite sex. It’s not unreasonable for parents to expect GG to follow this advice. Why aren’t we?

1. The policy does not acknowledge the embarrassment a teen may feel when dealing with periods, washing and bathing in shared facilities with a person they may have known as a boy.

1. The policy is focused on the needs of the transchild and their preferences. As a Leader I have a duty to all children in my care and must balance each of their needs. Only in reference to changing clothes does the policy state that all children should be offered a more private place to change if desired, otherwise transchildren chose what facilities they use with no reference to their fellow guides.

1. If GG cannot guarantee truly single sex accommodation then some girls will miss out on residentials, eg girls from certain religious groups, those who have been subjected to abuse or who just don’t want to. This is against GG’s inclusive ethos

So far GG has responded with (template?) emails to say that GG has always been a single gender organisation, gender identity (as defined above) is recognised as separate from biological sex and Leaders should refer concerned parents to the higher ups.

Today’s TV show made me wonder how many people really understand the implications of the policy and have similar concerns. Leaders can't discuss other children with parents (rightIy so) but that means parents can't give informed consent to their child sharing mixed sex facilities. I'd like to gauge the feeling of parents but it's a sensitive issue and not something that I can just ask my girls’ parents. Perhaps you think I am over reacting. Perhaps you share my concerns. Either way, I’d like to know.

Finally, I should add that I’m not trying to have transgirls removed from GG. Neither do I think all men/boys are potential sex offenders. But I do owe it to the parents and children in my care to have assessed all the risks thoroughly. My point is that this policy poses a risk, which doesn't appear to be recognised by GG and Leaders aren't being advised how to manage it.

I do have to pop out for a bit now but will come back later, if anyone replies!

The laws clearly aren't being used for the purpose for which they were designed.

We could, of course, just sit back and say, well since there is enough of a loophole to be legally exploited, let's just have our tea and go home.

Which, fortunately, is something said by no feminist ever.

It was perfectly legal for my husband to rape me when I was first married.

It was perfectly legal for a barman to refuse to serve me on my 21st birthday bash purely on the basis that I am a woman.

And for my boss to pay me less my male counterpart when I first worked.

And it might, currently, be legal to define the word woman as a set of stereotypes, and utilise that to allow men access to rape refuges, female locker rooms, single sex organisations, women's sport, all women shortlists and female prisons.

But that's not what the law was designed to do. And until people realise how that has been allowed to happen, and why, feminists need to challenge it every step of the way.

That's what they do.

@Heggy79

The point is they aren't^ boys. In their sense of self they are a girl. It's not that they want to be a girl it is that they are^ but have the wrong body.

I'm not surprised it's making you feel uncomfortable.

Anyone with an ounce of imagination, or has ever watched Freaky Friday, would empathise.

But it's only because you believe that it's possible - to have a female brain in a male body.

There are two parts to this. Firstly, we categorise people based on sex. Not thoughts. Sex is purely a description of biological function. That's it.

The reason why sometimes sex segregation is necessary is because, unfortunately, men commit the overwhelming majority of violent and sexual crime (99% of sexual crime). A statistic which doesn't change, incidentally, however they identify.

And of course, in terms of sport, physiology is everything. Not thoughts.

But secondly, the question you need to ask yourself is what are they identifying with?

You can't identify with ovaries, a womb and a vagina.

So what are the thoughts they are thinking? The only possible thing they can be identifying with is what they imagine constitutes a female, but is separate to their biology.

And that's when it starts to become clear.

When you actually start to list what those possible things could be.

Because for every single thing that you could imagine that is stereotypically female, there will be men who do it, and women who don't. Because it's not innate. It's personality and preference.

You only have to look at children in America who play soccer, for instance. There it's considered a girls' sport. So a boy wants to play it is considered 'girly'. And often questioned as to whether they are really trans.

If you speak to transsexuals who know they are men, but want to identify as women there is always a story. There is always a reason. If you speak to detransitioners, they will say the same thing.

It's rejection of toxic masculinity. Rejection of ladish, sexist banter. Or prevalent male violence in the media, pornography, etc. The rejection of the be strong, don't cry narrative.

They will often have come from a background where gender roles are rigourously enforced. To their great distress.

Ther are all sorts of reasons why people transition. But having a brain of the opposite sex in their body, isn't one of them.

And that absolutely does not mean that you can't have profound compassion for someone with gender dysphoria.

It does mean that you can't change sex.

And it certainly doesn't mean that you should be able to redefine the very definition of woman.

Hi all. Not caught up with reading whole thread as been working and looking after toddlers. Will catch up.

I have printed out the Equality Act and have a fun weekend ahead! My opinion is that starting a claim will give you leverage to get GG to reconsider.

Now anybody got any understanding of judicial review? I think that there’s a time limit to bring a claim of 90 days but I’m not sure what starts the clock?

When was the policy published?

Also any recommendations for law firms which specialise in judicial review?

I think the first thing is to work out the timeframe we need to meet, then identify a firm and get an idea of initial costs. Possibly 20k will get things started.

I’ve no idea about crowd funding mind but possibly Jennifer James could give some advice

Thank you to those who replied to me.

I must admit that I didn't really know much about transgender people until a couple of years ago. My understanding now comes from a student of mine a few years ago who transitioned from male to female. She and I spoke about what had made her realise that was she wanted to do at such (as I thought then) a young age - she was 14. She said that the advent of puberty made her body something she didn't recognise. It didn't feel like it should be growing the way that it was. She felt like she shared an understanding of who she was which was comparable with her female friends rather than her male friends. She hated the fact she had a penis and wanted it gone, she wanted breasts, as teenage girls do. Her body was 'wrong'. She underwent surgery when she was 17. Would you let her be a Guide? At which point in her journey?

And I understand that we classify using biological sex, but we also have gender as well. They are different. Gender is beyond the biological plumbing. It's a social construct as well as an understanding of our place in the binary sex classification. Who I am as a woman is more than my sexual organs.

I understand the concern about boys with penises being in a room with girls with vaginas - and, to be honest, I'm not sure what my position would be for my own daughter. But ... the point is that they don't want to do anything with that penis, isn't it? That many don't even want that penis. I don't think there are statistics, but lesbian transgender girls must be few and far between?

Safeguarding is ultimately the most important thing in the whole debate, but we also shouldn't demonise or exclude children just because we disagree with their perception of who they are, should we?

The role of a pre/surgery transgender adult who self-ID ... now, to me that's a whole different issue. A much thornier one at that. But the case of the Guides themselves is what made me initially want to post my thoughts.

lesbian transgender girls must be few and far between?

Welcome to the peak trans Mountain range Heggy. Allow us to be your guides.

What you have met sounds like a nice old fashioned transsexual. Still not a 'woman in a man's body' but someone with gender dysphoria.

But most transgender men do indeed keep their penises. Not only that but they say they are lesbian and that actual female lesbians are homophobic to not want to sleep with them (Google - cotton ceiling). And they tell us to suck their lady dicks when they get angry 'cos, y'know, male socialisation.

Shall we let them share a tent with a 14 year old girl? And if not how shall we frame the policy so it keeps them out?

Heggy by lesbian transgender girls do you mean
a) girls who grow up to be teens who think they want to be men and who fancy girls? Or
b) boys who grow up to be men who like dressing in women's clothing and who fancy girls?
Both are very common.
The ones in a) often transition back to being women but continue to fancy girls
The ones in b) complain that lesbians are transphobic because they won't sleep with them.
The person you know is probably in the group that have a high likelihood of transitioning back and deciding they are a gay man.
I don't think a gay man or boy would make a good leader or Guide because they didn't grow up a girl and know what it's like to be treated as a girl.

But if we had a gay male helper (there are lots of male helpers in Guides) then that's fine as long as a) a group is allowed whether to take them as a helper (for some it won't be appropriate for e.g. religious reasons) and b) within a group individuals are given the choice of whether to share rooms/changing facilities.

Drspouse

I meant a person who was born a boy, identifies as a girl and fancies girls.

She said that the advent of puberty made her body something she didn't recognise. It didn't feel like it should be growing the way that it was

To be fair most people feel like this about puberty.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets: Allow us to be your guides

Thank you.

Is it really most transgender men/women ... Is it just a vocal few who skew perception?

And what you described- aren't they just cross-dressing in that case? To change one's gender is more than growing one's hair and changing into women's clothes, surely?

Excuse my naivety- I really don't know much about the issue.

Heggy sorry to disappoint but even for those who legally change gender the majority have no surgery or medical treatment.

aren't they just cross-dressing in that case? To change one's gender is more than growing one's hair and changing into women's clothes, surely?

Ah, I see you are a TERF madam. What's that you say about growing your hair and shaving your luxuriant beard changing into women's clothes?

Welcome to base camp. We're at about 5,000 metres here so you may feel the lack of sense oxygen as you acclimatise.

Please allow me to introduce exhibit A - Danielle Muscato (Google image search is your friend here) Pop back in when you're done.

But ... the point is that they don't want to do anything with that penis, isn't it?

Sadly not always true (as far as I’ve seen with the new trendy trans)

There is currently a wealth of young boys (and much older men) claiming they are now ‘lesbian’ girls. Meaning they fully intend to use their penis to have sex with girls.

For what other reason would they keep it? If their biological sex distressed them so much they’d surely get rid if they didn’t intend to be using it?

As an aside I don’t see a lot of the expected self hatred in this nu-trans movement. They really do seem to love themselves and are happy to show off their ‘lady penis’ online.

No wonder they hate the idea that you need actual gender dysphoria to be a true trans.

Heggy79
According to Stonewall cross-dressers are one of the groups of people included under the 'trans' umbrella:
"Trans – an umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth. Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) Transgender, Transsexual, Gender-queer (GQ), Gender-fluid, Non-binary, Gender-variant, Crossdresser, Genderless, Agender, Nongender, Third gender, Two-spirit, Bi-gender, Trans man, Trans woman,Trans masculine, Trans feminine and Neutrois."

Heggy

But ... the point is that they don't want to do anything with that penis, isn't it? That many don't even want that penis*

And this is where the schism happens. Both for someone like you, and your friend and women.

Firstly, about the only study into male pattern criminality of men who transition to female, found that despite surgery, and the diagnosis of gender dysphoria, they still conform to male pattern criminality.

However, many of them are gay, i.e. attracted to men, aren't political and just want to get on with it. They reject their male anatomy and any hint of masculinity.

But the schism arises with the other type of transwoman, endorsed by Stonewall, who are indeed, cross dressers. They are as much transwomen, as men with gender dysphoria. Despite them calling men with gender dysphoria TruScum.

This is a good thread, which breaks it down. The different types of gender dysphoria and the different reasons for transitioning.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

80% of transwomen keep their penis, less than 20% have ANY treatment, and those that do usually mean boobies and facial feminization surgery, they like the lady dick.

90% of them DO NOT HAVE DYSPHORIA, they have a fetish called autogynephilia. Most are rufty tufty boys, go into hyper masculine jobs like the marines, the army, become a fireman, work in really male dominated jobs like tech, marry, have kids, and cross dress. Bit link with domestic abuse, and most are HETEROSEXUAL. In order to justify their continuing attraction to women, they call themselves lesbians. They are vile to actual lesbians who won't bow down to the penis.

10% are genuine dysphoric transsexuals, most are usually gay (unlike your friend, who is straight, male fancying females), and these guys are usually not the problem, and most of them WOULDN'T WANT to join guides as a kid or an adult as they know they are a type of gay man.

Here is a little infographic

Lesbians are more than a little fed up with having heterosexual males declaring themselves to be lesbians and insisting that it is transphobic for women to deny them.

If you go online (not for the weak stomached) you'll read stories of them stealing their sisters underwear and masturbating in it (bruce jenner did this with his ten year old daughter's undies whilst watching himself in a mirror).

Many of them are heavily into porn, and fantasize at being f**cked like a woman, being submissive like a woman, and they are AROUSED by being in women's spaces, often they like hearing women urinate, or unwrap sanitary products, often they insert tampons into their anus (seen those pics on twitter) and do all kinds of mad stuff to be 'like a woman'.

Lactation is another thing they are quite aroused by.

Here are the criteria. And here is one comment from reddit talking about taking hormones and using a breast pump to get milk. Notice the sexualised language, and feeling 'so submissive' and wanting 'to be sucked dry'.

These MEN have no business being in women's spaces or around little girls. They are not in the least distressed by their bodies, in fact they are erotically involved with THEMSELVES, you are just the prop. I am not ALLOWING children to be used as the furniture of someone's fetish.

Finally these MEN are hurting actual genuine transsexuals like your friend, as when this backlashes, which it will, these men can melt back into their ordinary lives. Oh and you should see what they do to their families transwidow.wordpress.com/2016/01/25/the-masculinity-of-mtf-transition/

"To decide that you can have anything you want, and to just take it, even if it’s very the identity of a set of people with whom you cannot, by definition, identify with, is a very masculine idea. It’s an idea that male privilege absolutely primes one for. Colonization, capitalism, rape, pillage. To want and to get, because you can, because you aren’t even aware of the possibility that you can’t. To shove aside the oppressed in your quest for getting. And to get away with that, as you always have, because of your privilege.

To wake up one day, more than a decade into marriage, deciding that you need something new and that nothing can or should stop you, is a very masculine idea. To hell with your wife, your family, your memories. To indulge this midlife crisis as men always have, whether it’s with a teenage mistress, a red corvette, or lipstick and a pair of heels, and let it destroy your family."

If you go online (not for the weak stomached) you'll read stories of them stealing their sisters underwear and masturbating in it (bruce jenner did this with his ten year old daughter's undies whilst watching himself in a mirror).

Many of them are heavily into porn, and fantasize at being f**cked like a woman, being submissive like a woman, and they are AROUSED by being in women's spaces, often they like hearing women urinate, or unwrap sanitary products, often they insert tampons into their anus (seen those pics on twitter) and do all kinds of mad stuff to be 'like a woman'.

Lactation is another thing they are quite aroused by.

Here are the criteria. And here is one comment from reddit talking about taking hormones and using a breast pump to get milk. Notice the sexualised language, and feeling 'so submissive' and wanting 'to be sucked dry'.

These MEN have no business being in women's spaces or around little girls. They are not in the least distressed by their bodies, in fact they are erotically involved with THEMSELVES, you are just the prop. I am not ALLOWING children to be used as the furniture of someone's fetish.

Finally these MEN are hurting actual genuine transsexuals like your friend, as when this backlashes, which it will, these men can melt back into their ordinary lives. Oh and you should see what they do to their families transwidow.wordpress.com/2016/01/25/the-masculinity-of-mtf-transition/

"To decide that you can have anything you want, and to just take it, even if it’s very the identity of a set of people with whom you cannot, by definition, identify with, is a very masculine idea. It’s an idea that male privilege absolutely primes one for. Colonization, capitalism, rape, pillage. To want and to get, because you can, because you aren’t even aware of the possibility that you can’t. To shove aside the oppressed in your quest for getting. And to get away with that, as you always have, because of your privilege.

To wake up one day, more than a decade into marriage, deciding that you need something new and that nothing can or should stop you, is a very masculine idea. To hell with your wife, your family, your memories. To indulge this midlife crisis as men always have, whether it’s with a teenage mistress, a red corvette, or lipstick and a pair of heels, and let it destroy your family."

and most of them WOULDN'T WANT to join guides as a kid or an adult as they know they are a type of gay man

Absolutely right.

Sorry guys no idea what that posted twice.

Hey Truscum, I know, I read an amazing post here a while back about the 'honour system' that longer transitioned transsexuals passed on to the newbies, about how NOT to encroach on women, how it was never about making women feel unsafe or embarrassed, tips on which loos were safe unisex cubicles, honest discussions about gender, etc.

God knows what's happened, but it's a crying shame for non AGP transsexuals and for women and kids.

Heggy79 My dd left Guides because she got bored with it. But had she stayed in I would be slightly worried by their new stance. I am sure your friend is lovely but I've got loads of lovely male friends and I would not expect my daughter to share a tent with them.

Your friend underwent surgery when she was 17. Does this mean so called 'bottom' surgery, the penis changed into a vagina shape, or was it another kind of surgery like breast implants or facial feminisatin surgery? As far as I am aware the sexual reconstruction surgery is illegal at that age in the UK but is legal in other places so she may have gone elsewhere.

Generally speaking trans people do not like talking about what surgeries they have had and it is considered rude to ask, so for a lot of trans people no one would really know what surgery they had or had not had.

"Would you let her be a Guide? At which point in her journey?" Would I personally, no, because Girl Guides is a single sex organisation, or it was, until a short while ago when it decided that girls who identified as boys were out and boys who identified as girls were in!

Would Girl Guides now, yes they wold and they would not tell anyone if she was staying in a tent with girls regardless of whether she had had any surgery or not.

"...we also shouldn't demonise or exclude children just because we disagree with their perception of who they are, should we?" No one wants to demonise anyone. I don't want to demonise men but I don't want to shower with them.

Something I have noted recently that bears on what Italiangreyhound said. If trans identified males do not specify bottom surgery, they are talking about "feminization" surgery.

She underwent surgery when she was 17
That is horrific! To undergo surgery as a child that would render you permanently infertile, should not be allowed.
A boy wouldn't be allowed to have a vasectomy at that age, but chopping his penis off is fine?

But ... the point is that they don't want to do anything with that penis, isn't it? That many don't even want that penis. I don't think there are statistics, but lesbian transgender girls must be few and far between?
You are guessing and completely wrong. Many trans women keep their penis so they can continue to have a satisfactory sex life. Many identify as lesbians and have PIV sex with women.

And what you described- aren't they just cross-dressing in that case? To change one's gender is more than growing one's hair and changing into women's clothes, surely?
No, that accounts for the vast majority of transwomen. Most keep their penis. The only changes they make are how they present themselves. Many take hormones, but they still retain a fully functioning penis.

Taken from Girl Scouts in the US (equivalent of Guides I believe) on including trans children

Girl Scouts is proud to be the premiere leadership organization for girls in the country. Placement of transgender youth is handled on a case-by-case basis, with the welfare and best interests of the child and the members of the troop/group in question a top priority. That said, if the child is recognized by the family and school/community as a girl and lives culturally as a girl, then Girl Scouts is an organization that can serve her in a setting that is both emotionally and physically safe.

Genuinely interested what lives culturally as a girl means. No comment about leaders.

EHRC statutory guidance page 38 of the PDF:

2.56 A comparator for the purposes of showing sex discrimination will be a person of the opposite sex. Sex does not include gender reassignment (see paragraphs 2.17 to 2.27) or sexual orientation (see paragraphs 2.60 to 2.64).

Sex does not include gender reassignment