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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Let's Talk about White Feminism

342 replies

MagnificentDelurker · 27/02/2018 21:40

This is going to take a bit long but please bear with me. I feel like an intruder as I have actively been avoiding feminism and specially the white kind all my life. Kinda like putting my hand in my ears and saying la la ... So I feel a bit of an imposter to come and talk about white feminism with some supposed sagacity but here it goes:

First a bit of background: I am an immigrant to UK from a deeply religious and Muslim country. I have been as gender non conforming as you could get in country with mandatory hijab laws. I have argued for women's right as much as I could but still I would never call myself feminist. So it was a delight to discover mumsnet and read writing of so many fiercely intelligent women.

So seeing so many of my sisters getting attacked for supposedly white feminism I had to rant somewhere. I have met many feminist who have been overtly/ inadvertantly racist. Probably not more so than general population but again that is not the point.

Feminism is a women's right movement. Feminist cannot be expected to fight everyone's battle for them. Feminists are humans like most, we (humans) are capable of detailed analysis of situations that are close to our own experience but generally would fill the rest with background noise or stereotypes. We might know in detail how subtle but effective sexism works but at the same time completely black out the experience of being working class man. This is just human.

However, this does not invalidate the experience of a white middle class woman. The suppression is real and she has every right to fight for herself. Her fight has also benefitted me as a muslim women growing up in a different era and a different country. Because women fought for vote, it meant that I did not have to. We were given the right to vote because it became a norm in most countries. I did not have to fight for right to education either. I was automatically educated, again it became the norm. I was albeit begrudgingly admitted to university, was even allowed to choose typically male subject (engineering). In fact, the ratio of women to men in my university (predominately a STEM university) was no different to say US (where I travelled for post graduate studies ) . I am happy that I did not have to fight these battles and I thank (white) feminists for it, even if some were racists. We have our own battles, from fighting mandatory hijab to street harassment, to unfair divorce laws. I am mightily glad that we do not have to fight from square one.

Yes there are times that what is called as white feminism can transgress. But those are not the times when white women are fighting for rights that might only affect a subset of women they belong to in short term. They transgress when they advocate to invade my birth country to free the women. They transgress (in my opinion and I understand that many disagree) when they advocate for banning hijab and hence taking agency away from muslim women. They transgress when they they simplify the experiences of my life as a muslim woman to just being a victim.

None of the above applies in this fight for women's spaces. And I feel very included that these women fight not for banning of my hijab but for spaces that I can feel comfortable taking my hijab (not me specifically as I don't wear hijab but you get my point).

Finally, among marginalised people sometimes those with more power are the only ones with a voice and that does not mean they should not use it.

It is a bit incoherent but just wanted to say you go girl to all of you (and rant a bit)

OP posts:
2rebecca · 03/03/2018 17:55

What's with the seafood obsession? Cod for tea? Getting hungry? Better than "chicks" I suppose but not much and not very feminist.

TERFragetteCity · 03/03/2018 17:56

When OP said 'let's talk about white feminism' I think she was asking for a discussion, not a demonstration....

So - what about discussing it then?

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 03/03/2018 17:56

Is this the same JJ that the thread about being suspended from the labour party is about?

2rebecca · 03/03/2018 17:57

I googled her and coronation St actress came up. She's probably neither as rebecca isn't my real name.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 03/03/2018 17:59

Aaah so just some random then 2rebbeca

nauticant · 03/03/2018 17:59

I'm reasonably sure it's the same one Rufustherenegadereindeer1. They confirmed their MN identity using their twitter account some time back.

TERFragetteCity · 03/03/2018 18:02

Is this the same JJ that the thread about being suspended from the labour party is about?

Yes - who many feminists on here donated money to help fight men being on all woman shortlists.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 03/03/2018 18:02

I really ought to look at that thread and see what the suspension is all about then

Im assuming its for being really mean and rude but that seems a bit of an over reaction on behalf of the labour party

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 03/03/2018 18:03

Oops

Crosspost TERF

TERFragetteCity · 03/03/2018 18:06

Im assuming its for being really mean and rude but that seems a bit of an over reaction on behalf of the labour party

No, JJ was suspended for calling a group that wanted to kill 10,000 police a 'hate group'. And various other minor discretions that are totally over the top, and not reasons for suspension in any way.

QuentinSummers · 03/03/2018 18:06

It is a bit weird coming on here and mouthing off about women who donated to you and support your cause.

2rebecca · 03/03/2018 18:11

Did they manage to keep female shortlists XX only? That seems unlikely when we can't have XX female sports events. Not that I'm a fan of quotas. I don't want to be discriminated against but I like to be able to vote for my favourite person regardless of their sex. We've had Maggie Thatcher and Teresa May after all.

nauticant · 03/03/2018 18:17

It's still an open question. As far as I recall there will be a decision by Labour this month.

Although you write it seems unlikely to keep all women shortlists in view of the other craziness going on, the all women shortlists issue is special. To allow transwomen on these lists would actually be contrary to the Equality Act 2010.

nauticant · 03/03/2018 18:20

Darn:

To allow transwomen (who don't have a gender recognition certificate) on these lists

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 03/03/2018 18:20

I agree that white privilege needs calling out. But in that spirit, there are a whole series of thought-provoking and illuminating posts on this thread from women of colour who have challenged the dominant narrative and made white assumptions apparent simply by explaining the ways in which their experience differs from that of white women.

The care and tact with which they have put their views has been obvious. I'm not defending the fact that this was necessary in order for their voices to be heard. But I'm not at all sure that the subsequent barneying has been altogether respectful of this, or is likely to be a successful amplification of their voices, whatever pps intentions.

I really hope that OP and other posters of colour will come back or consider starting another thread where we can continue what briefly felt like a productive discussion Flowers

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 03/03/2018 18:20

Oh well that's definitely out of order TERF

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 03/03/2018 18:22

And what tallulah said

slightlyglittermaned · 03/03/2018 20:31

"The care and tact with which they have put their views has been obvious. I'm not defending the fact that this was necessary in order for their voices to be heard. But I'm not at all sure that the subsequent barneying has been altogether respectful of this, or is likely to be a successful amplification of their voices, whatever pps intentions."

A second "what tallulah said".

And a somewhat more frank comment from this non-white feminist: for FUCKS SAKE. Drowning out any discussion by grandstanding INSTEAD of trying to revive any one of the many interesting themes on this thread is NOT THE ACT OF A FUCKING ALLY.

(Anyone wanting to take a pop at a pp, or me for that matter - start your own fucking thread. I suggest you call it "the sound of my own sweet sweet voice").

One last attempt: Anyone else listen to that podcast yet?

QuentinSummers · 03/03/2018 20:36

I made another thread glittery feel free to pop over to discuss if you want

thebewilderness · 03/03/2018 20:36

I got lost and confused by all the sniper fire.
Where is the linky to the podcast, please and thank you?
I will try to listen to it but I confess I prefer reading to listening.

QuentinSummers · 03/03/2018 20:39

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09sn7ym

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 03/03/2018 20:39

thebewilderness

Same here

I wonder if there is a transcript

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 03/03/2018 20:41

Just checked the link and its 15 minutes

Even i think i can cope with that

Will look tomorrow slightly

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 03/03/2018 20:45

Where is your thread quentin

TimbuktuTimbuktu · 03/03/2018 20:45

Thank you @slightlyglittermaned

I thought the podcast was interesting. Lots of parallels to things we have discussed here. The idea that identity is imposed on us by others and that determines how we are treated in a racial context is very similar to how we use gender in a rad fem analysis. The construct of race/gender is the tool used to enforce oppression based on an observable material reality (skin colour/sex)