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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Let's Talk about White Feminism

342 replies

MagnificentDelurker · 27/02/2018 21:40

This is going to take a bit long but please bear with me. I feel like an intruder as I have actively been avoiding feminism and specially the white kind all my life. Kinda like putting my hand in my ears and saying la la ... So I feel a bit of an imposter to come and talk about white feminism with some supposed sagacity but here it goes:

First a bit of background: I am an immigrant to UK from a deeply religious and Muslim country. I have been as gender non conforming as you could get in country with mandatory hijab laws. I have argued for women's right as much as I could but still I would never call myself feminist. So it was a delight to discover mumsnet and read writing of so many fiercely intelligent women.

So seeing so many of my sisters getting attacked for supposedly white feminism I had to rant somewhere. I have met many feminist who have been overtly/ inadvertantly racist. Probably not more so than general population but again that is not the point.

Feminism is a women's right movement. Feminist cannot be expected to fight everyone's battle for them. Feminists are humans like most, we (humans) are capable of detailed analysis of situations that are close to our own experience but generally would fill the rest with background noise or stereotypes. We might know in detail how subtle but effective sexism works but at the same time completely black out the experience of being working class man. This is just human.

However, this does not invalidate the experience of a white middle class woman. The suppression is real and she has every right to fight for herself. Her fight has also benefitted me as a muslim women growing up in a different era and a different country. Because women fought for vote, it meant that I did not have to. We were given the right to vote because it became a norm in most countries. I did not have to fight for right to education either. I was automatically educated, again it became the norm. I was albeit begrudgingly admitted to university, was even allowed to choose typically male subject (engineering). In fact, the ratio of women to men in my university (predominately a STEM university) was no different to say US (where I travelled for post graduate studies ) . I am happy that I did not have to fight these battles and I thank (white) feminists for it, even if some were racists. We have our own battles, from fighting mandatory hijab to street harassment, to unfair divorce laws. I am mightily glad that we do not have to fight from square one.

Yes there are times that what is called as white feminism can transgress. But those are not the times when white women are fighting for rights that might only affect a subset of women they belong to in short term. They transgress when they advocate to invade my birth country to free the women. They transgress (in my opinion and I understand that many disagree) when they advocate for banning hijab and hence taking agency away from muslim women. They transgress when they they simplify the experiences of my life as a muslim woman to just being a victim.

None of the above applies in this fight for women's spaces. And I feel very included that these women fight not for banning of my hijab but for spaces that I can feel comfortable taking my hijab (not me specifically as I don't wear hijab but you get my point).

Finally, among marginalised people sometimes those with more power are the only ones with a voice and that does not mean they should not use it.

It is a bit incoherent but just wanted to say you go girl to all of you (and rant a bit)

OP posts:
nicentoasty · 27/02/2018 23:29

Finally, among marginalised people sometimes those with more power are the only ones with a voice and that does not mean they should not use it.

Absolutely.

White feminism seems to have been co-opted as a phrase to shut up women and it's rarely 'shut up and listen to this black/asian woman and what she can add about her experience.' It's just used as a plain-old 'shut up'.

In the UK, most women are white so that's the majority of the female population whose experiences of abuse, harassment and discrimination can be closed down and invalidated as too privileged and white. And white women (and also middle class women) do have more of a voice/more power so it is particularly effective to be able to shut them up - while convincing people that you are being 'liberal'/'anti-discriminatory' in doing so. This disadvantages all women - and intentionally so.

That's not to say that feminism and feminists can't be challenged to be more inclusive of all women's experiences but that is not what this now toxic phrase achieves.

slightlyglittermaned · 27/02/2018 23:30

hipsterfun - try some of these results: www.google.co.uk/search?q=war+justifications+women%27s+rights

hipsterfun · 27/02/2018 23:31

I am a bit confused about how this thread has been interpreted

You said yourself it was incoherent, so misinterpretation shouldn’t come as that much of a surprise.

MagnificentDelurker · 27/02/2018 23:34

Tells

Really you just want to get offended. Don’t I have a right to be annoyed from time to time? After I framed everything in how grateful I was for all “white” feminist (for lack of better word). That you have every right to fight for yourself even if it affects only a subset. I thought the last sentence said just because you have a voice it does not mean you should not use it(although afraid to check lest I wrote something completely different to what I intended judging by the reactions)

OP posts:
TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 27/02/2018 23:36

Really you just want to get offended

Sorry did I annoy you again. My bad.

slightlyglittermaned · 27/02/2018 23:36

What nicentoasty said. Be nice to have a discussion about how "white feminism" is used to shut up old women, high profile women, women with some power who might otherwise, shock horror, be heard.

Totally agree with OPs point that this tactic is NOT used for women's benefit. It's just silencing.

lightoflaluna · 27/02/2018 23:38

I didn't find it incoherent. I thought it was an interesting read from another perspective. I am quite disappointed by the snarky responses.

LightofaSilveryMoon · 27/02/2018 23:39

"Can you fill me in on The One Where Men Invaded a Country to Free the Women?"
I remember the Afghanistan invasion being heavily spinned as some sort of mission to "free the women of Afghanistan".

That worked out well, didn't it.

Have no immediate links, and can't be arsed to go searching at this time of night, but OP is right about that.

I, too am also a bit confused at the reaction to the OP, who is saying, basically (and correct me if I am wrong, OP, please) that white middle-class feminists are often demonised for (among many, many, many other things) not campaigning for sisters from other ethnic minorities; whereas in OP's reality, white middle-class feminists shoved the door open, and left it open for other women to come on through and join in.

Can't see what's so objectionable about that.

MagnificentDelurker · 27/02/2018 23:40

Thanks Nice excellently put.

OP posts:
MagnificentDelurker · 27/02/2018 23:46

An example is equal pay for Hollywood actresses is not my fight. I don’t really care but I am sure when equity is reached it will help other women as well. Not automatically and not without other changes and more fights. So I stand with them at least morally.

OP posts:
AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 28/02/2018 00:10

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

MagnificentDelurker · 28/02/2018 00:13

Fuck off where. Do enlighten me.

OP posts:
hipsterfun · 28/02/2018 00:17

I’ve always taken ‘fuck off’ to be a complete sentence, much like ‘no’.

That said, I think it’s uncalled for here.

slightlyglittermaned · 28/02/2018 00:20

Magnificent That's actually a pretty good example of how something affecting Hollywood actresses (Weinstein) was high-profile enough and newsworthy enough to affect the reception of other stories (Presidents Club, Oxfam cover-up of Haiti). I do not think there would necessarily have been the same reaction without the MeToo stuff.

LightofaSilveryMoon · 28/02/2018 00:23

I've only been on MN since very roughly about Christmas, so I may be naive re "men dude" and MRAs.

But seriously, the OP reads to me like a woman who belongs to an ethnic minority saying that white middle-class feminists need not beat themselves up about that, or allow themselves to be beaten up by others - mostly men - for being "white, middle-class feminists", because they have achieved measures of equality, or progressed towards trying to achieve equality, at least.

(Which currently seem to be going backwards now, in UK.)

Post edited by MNHQ

MagnificentDelurker · 28/02/2018 00:27

Slight

That was a great example. It had not crossed my mind.

OP posts:
MagnificentDelurker · 28/02/2018 00:31

Lights

Thanks for defending. It seems that me stating that when it comes to my specific issues I might disagree with “white” feminists was put too strongly (and excuse the awkward English)

OP posts:
LightofaSilveryMoon · 28/02/2018 00:41

MagnificentDelurker, thank you for your posts!

I really have to go to bed now, because I have work tomorrow.

But it's been good talking with you and others!

I wish you well!

JellySlice · 28/02/2018 00:41

Seems a perfectly reasonable rant to me.

It has never occurred to me to resent 'white feminism' for not necessarily representing my particular minority. I take for granted freedoms and rights which I have as a consequence of 'white' feminism affecting everyone.

If my particular minority have an issue to fight for, whether feminist or otherwise, I would expect us to initiate the campaign and look for outside support. I doubt 'white' feminists would say "Nothing to do with us. Won't someone consider the white women?". I would be astonished if 'white' feminists did not support a 'non-white' feminist issue, just because it did not directly affect them.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 28/02/2018 00:48

This reply has been deleted

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UpstartCrow · 28/02/2018 00:48

JellySlice Exactly, it seems obvious to me that the women who achieve some independence and autonomy first are going to be the first to speak out.

MsAwesomeDragon · 28/02/2018 00:51

Magnificent your rant seems perfectly reasonable to me. I really don't know why some posters have reacted the way they have, unless there is some huge back story in unaware of.

You basically said white feminists have done some great stuff fighting for equality, which has spread to other cultures as well. Yay, good for feminism! Then you said that some campaigns have been ill-thought-out because the people they are supposed to have been for/about haven't been listened to. Which seems a very reasonable thing to moan about. I'm not aware of the campaigns you were talking about, but there are quite a lot of campaigns I'm not aware of.

womanhuman · 28/02/2018 00:55

I get you OP - no idea why you’re being snarked at...

MagnificentDelurker · 28/02/2018 01:00

Thanks awesome

I did not mention the campaigns as they were not the point. Just to say that the counter point is not strong enough to invalidate the original point.

OP posts:
Adoodoobydoo · 28/02/2018 01:00

Whatever manner of crap was in the OP, noone believes a woman wrote it.

Maybe I'm really naive but I believe a woman wrote it. Confused I genuinely don't understand what was so objectionable about what she said either.