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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Let's Talk about White Feminism

342 replies

MagnificentDelurker · 27/02/2018 21:40

This is going to take a bit long but please bear with me. I feel like an intruder as I have actively been avoiding feminism and specially the white kind all my life. Kinda like putting my hand in my ears and saying la la ... So I feel a bit of an imposter to come and talk about white feminism with some supposed sagacity but here it goes:

First a bit of background: I am an immigrant to UK from a deeply religious and Muslim country. I have been as gender non conforming as you could get in country with mandatory hijab laws. I have argued for women's right as much as I could but still I would never call myself feminist. So it was a delight to discover mumsnet and read writing of so many fiercely intelligent women.

So seeing so many of my sisters getting attacked for supposedly white feminism I had to rant somewhere. I have met many feminist who have been overtly/ inadvertantly racist. Probably not more so than general population but again that is not the point.

Feminism is a women's right movement. Feminist cannot be expected to fight everyone's battle for them. Feminists are humans like most, we (humans) are capable of detailed analysis of situations that are close to our own experience but generally would fill the rest with background noise or stereotypes. We might know in detail how subtle but effective sexism works but at the same time completely black out the experience of being working class man. This is just human.

However, this does not invalidate the experience of a white middle class woman. The suppression is real and she has every right to fight for herself. Her fight has also benefitted me as a muslim women growing up in a different era and a different country. Because women fought for vote, it meant that I did not have to. We were given the right to vote because it became a norm in most countries. I did not have to fight for right to education either. I was automatically educated, again it became the norm. I was albeit begrudgingly admitted to university, was even allowed to choose typically male subject (engineering). In fact, the ratio of women to men in my university (predominately a STEM university) was no different to say US (where I travelled for post graduate studies ) . I am happy that I did not have to fight these battles and I thank (white) feminists for it, even if some were racists. We have our own battles, from fighting mandatory hijab to street harassment, to unfair divorce laws. I am mightily glad that we do not have to fight from square one.

Yes there are times that what is called as white feminism can transgress. But those are not the times when white women are fighting for rights that might only affect a subset of women they belong to in short term. They transgress when they advocate to invade my birth country to free the women. They transgress (in my opinion and I understand that many disagree) when they advocate for banning hijab and hence taking agency away from muslim women. They transgress when they they simplify the experiences of my life as a muslim woman to just being a victim.

None of the above applies in this fight for women's spaces. And I feel very included that these women fight not for banning of my hijab but for spaces that I can feel comfortable taking my hijab (not me specifically as I don't wear hijab but you get my point).

Finally, among marginalised people sometimes those with more power are the only ones with a voice and that does not mean they should not use it.

It is a bit incoherent but just wanted to say you go girl to all of you (and rant a bit)

OP posts:
womanhuman · 03/03/2018 10:12

Oh Francine, loads of posters asked about that at the time, other posters explained. It’s not hard.

FrancinePefko · 03/03/2018 10:20

SlothSlothSloth sumed it up perfectly.

For those of you who have responded with vitriol (of a level I've rarely seen here) to this perfectly reasonable, and indeed insightful, post, I would ask that you please seriously reflect upon why. But instead I'm sure you'll just continue to be massively defensive.

picklemepopcorn · 03/03/2018 10:27

This was done and dusted pages ago, Francine.

I need to listen to the podcast Francine. Not had a chance yet.

FrancinePefko · 03/03/2018 10:36

Is it my imagination or does it seem like you now want to sweep the way this woman of colour was treated here under the carpet and pretend nothing happened.

user1497863568 · 03/03/2018 10:44

Noone thinks the invasions are on the pretext of liberating the women. It's a land/resources grab with a healthy dose of fascism thrown in from the likes of those who invaded us (Ireland) many times too. They're insane and scary as heck. The 'repressed Muslim woman' rhetoric as a reason for invading is just blatant propaganda and we all know that. I'm not quite sure what your point is.

LangCleg · 03/03/2018 10:45

Is it my imagination or does it seem like you now want to sweep the way this woman of colour was treated here under the carpet and pretend nothing happened.

It is your imagination.

I was late to the thread but it seemed to me that the conversation had evolved in a positive way, from some initial hostility to some actually fruitful and useful discussion.

Then you came along and sent it straight back to the beginning again, which was neither fruitful nor useful.

QuentinSummers · 03/03/2018 10:57

I've noticed these threads often get derailed. t's almost like there might be a reason not to want us to discuss "white feminism" as a concept. Or to build understanding so all women can fight together. Now why would people want to divide women? Hmm

picklemepopcorn · 03/03/2018 11:13

Must say, I think this thread has lost its way now, but many excellent points were discussed anyway. And there are others still ongoing. Thank goodness for Mumsnet.

JenniferJames · 03/03/2018 16:45

Wow. All five. Good catch.

JenniferJames · 03/03/2018 16:57

pro tip for everyone: if you ever want to find out who the abusive posters are on any forum, the ones who think they're top dog and have the right to police everyone else.... just complain about the abuse without naming them.

they know who they are. watch them defend it. one. at. a. time.

when a new poster, a black woman is being abused, mocked, insulted, questioned about her own existence... and people are defending the abusers? jesus fucking christ what is wrong with you people?

Famous Five plse gtfooh, you bring nothing to the party.

feminists my arse.

SophoclesTheFox · 03/03/2018 17:04

What on earth are you on about, Jennifer?

I have swerved this thread so far as I didn't have time to parse out the fruitful discussion that langcleg talked about from the uncharacteristic arsiness from a couple of posters, and then the baffling vocabularly derail. There's a great discussion to be had somewhere in here, but it's buried under layers of...weird.

nauticant · 03/03/2018 17:10

Who knows what this attention seeking behaviour is all about.

I've seen disagreements in this folder but when it comes to goading to start fights, until now the instigators seem to have been MRAs and TRAs. Now we have a special extra category of JenniferJames.

FrancinePefko · 03/03/2018 17:15

Jennifer James
I stay away from these page for the reasons you express. Good for you for calling out this kind of behaviour.

SophoclesTheFox · 03/03/2018 17:31

I stay away from these page for the reasons you express

And yet here you are, making really weird points about people's choice of vocabulary, while not expressing your own actual viewpoint. You seem pretty well equipped to hold your own.

JenniferJames · 03/03/2018 17:33

? I'm talking about 'a new poster, a black woman is abused on here mocked, insulted, questioned about her own existence'

There it is again, for you. Am I wrong?

JenniferJames · 03/03/2018 17:34

Waiting.... tick tock....

2rebecca · 03/03/2018 17:35

I doubt the OP is male and don't think she's being goady.
I disagree wih her opinion that only women who might wear hijabs should be able to campaign against them. It's like saying atheists shouldn't have a view on genital mutilation or Sharia law.
These things affect the way people view women and often those subjected to hijabs and fjm are not able to speak against them.
(I'm also opposed to male ritual circumcision).
I think this is why the cultural appropriation stuff makes me uncomfortable. I don't think certain behaviours/ dress/ hairstyles should be OK for one group but not another.
If muslim men also covered their faces then I suspect many people would be less angered by the sexism of the hijab, although I suppose in European cultures it's normal for women to cover their breasts when bathing where as men don't. That is a cultural thing and I don't get upset by that.
I view myself as a feminist, not a white feminist any more than I think of myself as a blue eyed feminist. I'm not sure I've ever thought of any non white feminists as being black or asian feminists.

JenniferJames · 03/03/2018 17:39

Us white girls need to check our privilege. Don't ever pretend you don't see colour. If you don't see colour you don't see racism.

Time people on here started listening to black women. If you find it uncormfortable when your white privilege is pointed out to you? Good. You should.

FrancinePefko · 03/03/2018 17:40

It wasn't just about one example of vocabulary. Although the word "furthermore" is indicative of the utter derision, contempt, condescension and pompous superiority in abundant display from hipsterfun and a handful of others because this woman of colour dared to use her voice here.

The irony is that the OP's actual point was completely lost on people telling her to fuck off and that she is incoherent.

2rebecca · 03/03/2018 17:42

Why is "check you/our privilege" used as a trump card to shut down debate and claim moral superiority?
I don't think the phrase has ever been used by anyone I respect.

JenniferJames · 03/03/2018 17:43

When OP said 'let's talk about white feminism' I think she was asking for a discussion, not a demonstration....

LassWiADelicateAir · 03/03/2018 17:47

However, this does not invalidate the experience of a white middle class woman. The suppression is real and she has every right to fight for herself. Her fight has also benefitted me as a muslim women growing up in a different era and a different country

I am slightly puzzled that in her first post the OP described herself as a Muslim woman and on her third post tore a strip off a poster for assuming the OP was Muslim.

LassWiADelicateAir · 03/03/2018 17:48

Us white girls need to check our privilege

Are there many under 16 year olds on this thread?

JenniferJames · 03/03/2018 17:50

wow. strong comeback.

laters little fishies... this does not hold my attention.

LassWiADelicateAir · 03/03/2018 17:52

Really Jennifer? It seems to be holding your attention remarkably well. Haven't you got better things to do?