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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Let's Talk about White Feminism

342 replies

MagnificentDelurker · 27/02/2018 21:40

This is going to take a bit long but please bear with me. I feel like an intruder as I have actively been avoiding feminism and specially the white kind all my life. Kinda like putting my hand in my ears and saying la la ... So I feel a bit of an imposter to come and talk about white feminism with some supposed sagacity but here it goes:

First a bit of background: I am an immigrant to UK from a deeply religious and Muslim country. I have been as gender non conforming as you could get in country with mandatory hijab laws. I have argued for women's right as much as I could but still I would never call myself feminist. So it was a delight to discover mumsnet and read writing of so many fiercely intelligent women.

So seeing so many of my sisters getting attacked for supposedly white feminism I had to rant somewhere. I have met many feminist who have been overtly/ inadvertantly racist. Probably not more so than general population but again that is not the point.

Feminism is a women's right movement. Feminist cannot be expected to fight everyone's battle for them. Feminists are humans like most, we (humans) are capable of detailed analysis of situations that are close to our own experience but generally would fill the rest with background noise or stereotypes. We might know in detail how subtle but effective sexism works but at the same time completely black out the experience of being working class man. This is just human.

However, this does not invalidate the experience of a white middle class woman. The suppression is real and she has every right to fight for herself. Her fight has also benefitted me as a muslim women growing up in a different era and a different country. Because women fought for vote, it meant that I did not have to. We were given the right to vote because it became a norm in most countries. I did not have to fight for right to education either. I was automatically educated, again it became the norm. I was albeit begrudgingly admitted to university, was even allowed to choose typically male subject (engineering). In fact, the ratio of women to men in my university (predominately a STEM university) was no different to say US (where I travelled for post graduate studies ) . I am happy that I did not have to fight these battles and I thank (white) feminists for it, even if some were racists. We have our own battles, from fighting mandatory hijab to street harassment, to unfair divorce laws. I am mightily glad that we do not have to fight from square one.

Yes there are times that what is called as white feminism can transgress. But those are not the times when white women are fighting for rights that might only affect a subset of women they belong to in short term. They transgress when they advocate to invade my birth country to free the women. They transgress (in my opinion and I understand that many disagree) when they advocate for banning hijab and hence taking agency away from muslim women. They transgress when they they simplify the experiences of my life as a muslim woman to just being a victim.

None of the above applies in this fight for women's spaces. And I feel very included that these women fight not for banning of my hijab but for spaces that I can feel comfortable taking my hijab (not me specifically as I don't wear hijab but you get my point).

Finally, among marginalised people sometimes those with more power are the only ones with a voice and that does not mean they should not use it.

It is a bit incoherent but just wanted to say you go girl to all of you (and rant a bit)

OP posts:
thebewilderness · 03/03/2018 00:02

Speaking of GF FrancinePefko
Tone policing qualifies you.

hipsterfun · 03/03/2018 00:10

Ok, people whose opinions I respect (not you, Francine, you’re coming across as a bit of dick), do I read like that to you? I’ve reread and ‘furthermore’ aside, I’m puzzled as to why she said that. Please be honest.

AngryAttackKittens · 03/03/2018 00:12

Is this thread just doomed or what? FFS.

FrancinePefko · 03/03/2018 00:15

You sound like a parody of some 1920s courtroom drama....It is quite amusing to read though.Grin

FrancinePefko · 03/03/2018 00:22

hipsterfun

I also think it’s reasonable for anyone to question the validity of the argument (such as it may be).Personally, I think checking people’s papers to see to what degree, if any, they are entitled to say things isn’t a very efficient way of going about things

Pompous???
Grin

womanhuman · 03/03/2018 00:24

No.

HTH.

hipsterfun · 03/03/2018 00:29

I’m sure it can get back on track. Not sure what the fuck Francine’s problem is.

FrancinePefko · 03/03/2018 00:33

You seem comically unaware of how you come across. It's amusing.

AngryAttackKittens · 03/03/2018 00:44

Is it time to start talking about avocados again until the GF gets bored and goes away?

LassWiADelicateAir · 03/03/2018 00:46

I don't presume to be a poster whose opinion you respect but as you asked for honesty...

"Furthermore" is the sort of word I come across being used by people who aren't legally qualified but who are corresponding, usually in a state of indignation , with people who are.

It is the sort of word party litigants use because they think it is language lawyers use (and to be fair we do) and that it adds weight to their (almost always) non-existent and spurious point. It is a "green ink letter" word.

Possibly it is just your particular linguistic style; as a "green ink" word it is only the palest of pale green and I would not have thought of commenting had you not asked.

hipsterfun · 03/03/2018 00:58

Thanks, Lass (presume away Smile). I’ve never had dealings with the law (unless conveyancing counts) but, should that change, I’ll remember not to use ‘furthermore’ in any correspondence Grin

thebewilderness · 03/03/2018 01:04

I am not sure I am a very good judge, hipsterfun, since I learned to talk from books and so am a bit more formal than the younglings. You do not seem pompous of pretentious to me, in the way that some others, who will go nameless, often do.

thebewilderness · 03/03/2018 01:05

That would be pompous or pretentious, not of.

nooka · 03/03/2018 03:19

Furthermore is a good word :) I don't think I'd use it in casual conversation, but good in an essay.

picklemepopcorn · 03/03/2018 07:48

Doubt I'm one whose opinion you solicit, but it read to me like someone marshalling their arguments. It didn't stand out until someone commented on it.
I wouldn't have objected to their first comment myself, but the following ones were definitely goady and unkind.

LilacClouds · 03/03/2018 08:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 03/03/2018 08:25

Actually, it was a really thoughtful post and elicited some excellent replies before degenerating into an embarrassing derail at the end.

LangCleg · 03/03/2018 08:34

You could always go with moreover instead?!

I have to admit, I've never seen a thread derailed by adverb choice before.

nauticant · 03/03/2018 08:38

The original post is good. It uses a valid term that is widely misused (to attack women) that triggered some people into intemperate responses. Looking at the context of how the OP used "white feminism" there's no evidence that it was done to goad.

It's annoying that the thread has returned to attempts to present the OP as someone posting in bad faith.

FrancinePefko · 03/03/2018 08:44

A woman from an ethnic minority decides hesitantly to share her thoughts on the feminist pages of MN - fully acknowledging that she might not be being as coherent as she'd like to be.

MN Feminists naturally tell her

  1. She is a Goady Fucker
  2. She must be a man
  3. To Fuck Off
  4. She is definitely a Goady Fucker again for having the temerity to ask where exactly she should Fuck Off to.
  5. Furthermore she is, indeed, incoherent.
  6. There is no need to engage with her at all.

What a delightful showcase of tolerance, inclusion, acceptance and encouragement.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 03/03/2018 08:54

^ You forgot to add that there were at least two rather silly derails at the end of the thread that simply showed blatant disrespect.

picklemepopcorn · 03/03/2018 09:10

Just a handful of people assumed OP was not what she seemed, and one of them apologised. Francine, you are being equally intolerant, picking on people's use of language.

As several people have said, this thread was mainly excellent- just one or two like you Francine, stirring.

FrancinePefko · 03/03/2018 09:13

LassWiADelicateAir put it far more succinctly than I could.

You asked for honesty...

"Furthermore" is the sort of word used by people who aren't qualified but who are corresponding, usually in a state of indignation , with people who are. They think it is language lawyers use and that it adds weight to their (almost always) non-existent and spurious point.

Furthermore, I put it to you, hipsterfun, that everything you have told the jury thus far is mendacious, spurious, heinous and...A TISSUE* OF LIES!!!!!

Naturally, "tissue" is pronounced as "isss - you" .

slightlyglittermaned · 03/03/2018 09:18

So that Lawrence Hoo podcast then. I listened, but with interruptions (extremely difficult for me to get peace & quiet to listen to podcasts) and I don't really get it.

Could people maybe talk a bit more about what they're getting from it?

FrancinePefko · 03/03/2018 09:41

Whatever manner of crap was in the OP, noone believes a woman wrote it.

The treatment of the OP here might explain why so many women (and I am guessing women of colour in particular) are put off.