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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Let's Talk about White Feminism

342 replies

MagnificentDelurker · 27/02/2018 21:40

This is going to take a bit long but please bear with me. I feel like an intruder as I have actively been avoiding feminism and specially the white kind all my life. Kinda like putting my hand in my ears and saying la la ... So I feel a bit of an imposter to come and talk about white feminism with some supposed sagacity but here it goes:

First a bit of background: I am an immigrant to UK from a deeply religious and Muslim country. I have been as gender non conforming as you could get in country with mandatory hijab laws. I have argued for women's right as much as I could but still I would never call myself feminist. So it was a delight to discover mumsnet and read writing of so many fiercely intelligent women.

So seeing so many of my sisters getting attacked for supposedly white feminism I had to rant somewhere. I have met many feminist who have been overtly/ inadvertantly racist. Probably not more so than general population but again that is not the point.

Feminism is a women's right movement. Feminist cannot be expected to fight everyone's battle for them. Feminists are humans like most, we (humans) are capable of detailed analysis of situations that are close to our own experience but generally would fill the rest with background noise or stereotypes. We might know in detail how subtle but effective sexism works but at the same time completely black out the experience of being working class man. This is just human.

However, this does not invalidate the experience of a white middle class woman. The suppression is real and she has every right to fight for herself. Her fight has also benefitted me as a muslim women growing up in a different era and a different country. Because women fought for vote, it meant that I did not have to. We were given the right to vote because it became a norm in most countries. I did not have to fight for right to education either. I was automatically educated, again it became the norm. I was albeit begrudgingly admitted to university, was even allowed to choose typically male subject (engineering). In fact, the ratio of women to men in my university (predominately a STEM university) was no different to say US (where I travelled for post graduate studies ) . I am happy that I did not have to fight these battles and I thank (white) feminists for it, even if some were racists. We have our own battles, from fighting mandatory hijab to street harassment, to unfair divorce laws. I am mightily glad that we do not have to fight from square one.

Yes there are times that what is called as white feminism can transgress. But those are not the times when white women are fighting for rights that might only affect a subset of women they belong to in short term. They transgress when they advocate to invade my birth country to free the women. They transgress (in my opinion and I understand that many disagree) when they advocate for banning hijab and hence taking agency away from muslim women. They transgress when they they simplify the experiences of my life as a muslim woman to just being a victim.

None of the above applies in this fight for women's spaces. And I feel very included that these women fight not for banning of my hijab but for spaces that I can feel comfortable taking my hijab (not me specifically as I don't wear hijab but you get my point).

Finally, among marginalised people sometimes those with more power are the only ones with a voice and that does not mean they should not use it.

It is a bit incoherent but just wanted to say you go girl to all of you (and rant a bit)

OP posts:
Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 03/03/2018 20:48

Oh i saw that

Will have a look

ALittleBitOfButter · 03/03/2018 20:53

Exactly 2rebecca

If I want to agree with a middle eastern activist against the hijab, i bloody well should be free to agree with her, without going through some handwringing guilt thing about whether I'm committing a thought crime.

thebewilderness · 03/03/2018 20:58

Thank you for that.
I was paging through and not finding.
For those who were too young or do not remember it is standard practice to promote atrocities to get women on board with invasions and wars. The babies thrown out of incubator and on to the floors to die was the hoax story told at a US Congressional hearing to get people on board with the war effort in Kuwait in 1990. Then there were the "rape rooms" stories widely reported to get people on board with the invasion of Iraq in 2003. There are many more.
Most feminists take a dim view of men wanting approval to invade another country based on men doing the same thing there that the men do here.

thebewilderness · 03/03/2018 21:16

He said it very simply and effectively, I think. How do we first answer that question, "what are you". I remember that moment of confusion too.
There are many cultures but only one race. The human race.

ALittleBitOfButter · 03/03/2018 21:22

Jennifer James i am listening to black women. The ones whose politics I agree with. For what it's worth I spent many years working on an international solidarity campaign. We took our direction from locals and also from women only cadres. So you can take your empty 'Check your privilege' libfem parrotting and think a bit harder. It's playing into the Stalinism of the Left which is alienating you!

YetAnotherSpartacus · 04/03/2018 00:33

I wonder how many feminists who don't listen to Muslim women and who really don't understand where they are coming from or what their issues are will still say 'we need women's spaces because of Islamic women or because women from some cultures and faiths cannot mix with men'?

BlindYeo · 04/03/2018 00:52

I think white feminism is a phrase used to divide and conquer and silence.

When people with direct experience of something say there is a problem of course their voice must be heard.

But I'm not a cultural relativist. Sometimes cultures have problems that they are too enmeshed in to recognise or deal with. FGM is a practice alien to my culture. But I 'transgress' and say it is abhorrent.

People are free to criticise my culture too and give me their perspective on it. Sometimes it has shone a light on practices that I would otherwise not have recognised as problematic.

LassWiADelicateAir · 04/03/2018 02:39

Although the word "furthermore" is indicative of the utter derision, contempt, condescension and pompous superiority in abundant display from hipsterfun and a handful of others because this woman of colour dared to use her voice here*

No Francine a slightly pompous use of language has been picked on by you and blown out of all proportion. You haven't brought anything useful to this thread and have contributed nothing beyond snarking at the language used by another poster.

FrancinePefko · 04/03/2018 08:07

Use of language has been picked on by you and blown out of all proportion
Maybe it was. But to me the way the OP was treated here smacked off "shut up, run along now, you're not as clever or coherent as us".

So yes, I do think some white, middle class women as guilty of the same kinds of judgemental and exclusionary behaviour as their male counterparts.

FrancinePefko · 04/03/2018 08:45

contributed nothing beyond snarking at the language

It's very interesting, isn't it? The workplace of today is completely different to a generation ago because women stood up and pointed out (over many decades) the use of language (and tone) used by men to keep women in their place. Behind words like "sweetheart, darling, ladies" was actually a statement of power. We pulled men up on this and it is far more less prevalent today than it was back then.

I pulled up white middle class feminist women for the tone they used to speak to a woman of colour (including dismissing her point as incoherent, telling her to fuck off, and that the "crap" she had written was naturally from a man).

When we challenge men on their tone and use of language towards women - it is a legitimate act of making society fairer, more equal and treating everyone with the respect and dignity they deserve.

When we challenge white middle class women on their tone and condescending vocabulary towards a woman of colour it is dismissed as merely snarking at language.

Your comment about "snarking at language" is exactly the kind of eye-rolling dismissal women have been on the receiving end when they're told they're blowing things out of all proportion because they get called e.g. "girls" or told in the street "Cheer up, love it might never happen" or when I have to challenge my Dad for saying "lady-doctor".

Why is it OK for white women to challenge men on their use of language and tone but it's not OK for black women to challenge the language and tone used by white women?

picklemepopcorn · 04/03/2018 09:26

Francine I repeat, by a tiny number of posters who misread the OP and jumped to conclusions, and some of whom later apologised. Yes they were wrong. But not because they thought OP was a WOC, but because they thought she was an MRA GF. Let it go. You and JJ seem to be spoiling for a fight, no matter the cost.

I have to say JJ, you had my full support for your stance re AWS etc. I'm starting to doubt you now though. You are coming across as a little odd and paranoid. In the nicest possible way- are you ok? Do you need to take a break? I'm assuming I'm not one of your fishes, by the way, as I posted in support of OP at the start, and am definitely small fry round here. I'm learning, not dictating.

FrancinePefko · 04/03/2018 09:35

picklemepopcorn

Francine I repeat, by a tiny number of posters - NAWFALT

Let it go. - It's not a big deal. Run along now.

You seem to be spoiling for a fight - calling people out for their exclusionary and dismissive behaviour is "asking for a fight"?

Thanks for the whitesplaining BTW

FrancinePefko · 04/03/2018 09:39

Are you ok? Do you need to take a break?

Why don't you just go the whole hog and question her sanity?
Why do WFs get away with this, but yet they would be up in arms if a man said to them "Time of the month, is it deary?"

FrancinePefko · 04/03/2018 09:44

*You are coming across as a little odd and paranoid"

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

How would the MCWF of MN react if a man had said, in the face of a woman objecting to his use of tone or language, "You are coming across as a little odd and paranoid"?

ILoveDolly · 04/03/2018 09:44

This thread is something of a rollercoaster, but as we can't SEE anyone's gender or colour, why is it not possible to have sensible debates? Without massive and quite rude assumptions? The MN feminism boards interest and frustrate me so much, just as this thread became productive with frank but even handed discussion, it was subsequently derailed again.
Fwiw I don't think that calling out GF by being one, or insistent mocking tone policing (yes, even though tone and language is critical to the evolution of power balance) has done anything here except derail the discussion and prevent the commenters interested in developing the thread productively from commenting.
I'm reading not commenting, I'm a classic "white feminist" but as a historian, originally, I've always tried to understand the struggles of women outside of my own sphere of time, place and class. It's hard to do actually you make assumptions/offend about things if you aren't a critical thinker or even if you are - Mary Beard/Germaine??!
It's important to continue the hijab debate but its so massively complicated and not really as simple as saying it IS or ISN'T a feminist issue: like the whole 'Fat is a feminist issue' thing, how do you unlock the truth when there are so many many class and cultural assumptions and factors in the reasons why things are now as they are. Each women's individual choices are just that, hers, usually. But in a cultural or religious context what were her choices. I know some women living in countries where its the law to wear hijab, their choice is to be legal or not (not really a choice) so are they oppressed? Controlled maybe, but their feminism is expressed by what they wear underneath, by how they bring up their daughter's. They don't need a war or rescuing, we must guard against casting victims and saviours.
A lot of this and other threads and also external feminism such as the whole trans thing tries to cast people into these Best Victim roles. Who deserves to be listened to? Who is the most worthy? The most victim y victim, poor me, etc. It is more silencing and controlling than the previous white male in charge narrative. Tiresome.

FrancinePefko · 04/03/2018 09:51

It is more silencing and controlling than the previous white male in charge narrative.

100% agree

LangCleg · 04/03/2018 09:51

You seem to be spoiling for a fight - calling people out for their exclusionary and dismissive behaviour is "asking for a fight"?

Francine, I wasn't part of the original argument but came to the thread later, after it had largely righted itself. I think this is what you're missing.

I agree, as others have, the thread got off to a dreadful start. Possibly because of the "white feminism" criticism generally and possibly because FWR has a problem with what Mumsnet terms "ploppers" or "goady fuckers" because it is known as a dreadful hotbed of TERFs.

Because "white feminism", as I pointed out earlier, is becoming a pejorative popular with transactivists used to slur any gender critical woman who does not think TIMs are women (I've seen several black women including Hibo Wardere slurred as white feminists lately), it's not that unlikely a new OP is a plopper or a GF.

Even so, I'm in complete agreement with you that the first part of thread took some ugly turns and that the OP should have been treated with more respect.

But it sorted itself out. Explanations were given. A couple of posters apologised and retracted. The conversation moved on and had become productive, thoughtful and useful for onlookers. The progression of the thread is actually a good example of how conflict can be at least partially resolved through discussion.

You're not being a hero here. You're just regressing the thread back to a bun fight. What is the point of that?

FrancinePefko · 04/03/2018 09:58

You're not being a hero here. You're just regressing the thread back to a bun fight

Well I am happy to take that on face value although it does come across as "What's your problem?" and whitesplaining

I have RTFT and only challenged when hipsterfun was defending her put downs of the OP.

Happy to be put in my box now though. I will leave the debate to the clever, white middle class feminists.

LangCleg · 04/03/2018 10:05

Happy to be put in my box now though. I will leave the debate to the clever, white middle class feminists.

No, no! Don't be like that! I mean, you've devoted quite a bit of time being angry here - and it's not as though I want you to shut up about the problems strands of feminism have in acknowledging, approaching and incorporating race into a workable feminist praxis.

I'm just saying - the thread had moved on and become helpful. So the way you're going about it is wasting all your knowledge and passion. I'm just saying - help us move the thread forward instead.

Let's get back to Crenshaw and Mary Beard's colonialist language choices!

TimbuktuTimbuktu · 04/03/2018 10:25

@FrancinePefko you are just being really annoying now. Why don't you post something about the actual topic?

The thread started really badly but we had redeemed it. You and JJ have just ruined it again. There is nothing productive in rehashing this anymore so please contribute something (anything) to the discussion or just leave it.

To pick up on a recent point- What do you think about how the phrase white feminism has been used recently to describe feminists of colour who are doing feminism 'wrong?'

FrancinePefko · 04/03/2018 10:33

Why don't you post something about the actual topic?

I think I have, haven't I? Middle class, well-educated, white feminists need to be aware of when they demonstrate exactly the same silencing, controlling and exclusionary behaviour that white males in power have been deploying for centuries.

ALittleBitOfButter · 04/03/2018 10:43

I wonder how many feminists who don't listen to Muslim women and who really don't understand where they are coming from or what their issues are...
Here's a clear example of regarding Muslim women as having a hive mind.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 04/03/2018 10:49

Here's a clear example of regarding Muslim women as having a hive mind

Er no. Just to be clear I was referring to women plural and issues plural.

picklemepopcorn · 04/03/2018 13:19

You are misreading the cause of my concern for JJ. It is not her opinions. Everyone is free to express opinions. It is her way of expressing herself here and elsewhere that do not sound like a woman in her position. No one has silenced you, we've asked you to stop silencing us. Telling everyone else that they are privileged middle class white feminists and should shut up is undermining your own argument. There were people here learning from each other. I freely admit to being new to this. I was learning from the other posters. You don't seem to be learning or teaching, frankly. I'm not interested in sparring with you anymore- I'm going to listen to the podcast (at last), and discuss that somewhere.