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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Let's Talk about White Feminism

342 replies

MagnificentDelurker · 27/02/2018 21:40

This is going to take a bit long but please bear with me. I feel like an intruder as I have actively been avoiding feminism and specially the white kind all my life. Kinda like putting my hand in my ears and saying la la ... So I feel a bit of an imposter to come and talk about white feminism with some supposed sagacity but here it goes:

First a bit of background: I am an immigrant to UK from a deeply religious and Muslim country. I have been as gender non conforming as you could get in country with mandatory hijab laws. I have argued for women's right as much as I could but still I would never call myself feminist. So it was a delight to discover mumsnet and read writing of so many fiercely intelligent women.

So seeing so many of my sisters getting attacked for supposedly white feminism I had to rant somewhere. I have met many feminist who have been overtly/ inadvertantly racist. Probably not more so than general population but again that is not the point.

Feminism is a women's right movement. Feminist cannot be expected to fight everyone's battle for them. Feminists are humans like most, we (humans) are capable of detailed analysis of situations that are close to our own experience but generally would fill the rest with background noise or stereotypes. We might know in detail how subtle but effective sexism works but at the same time completely black out the experience of being working class man. This is just human.

However, this does not invalidate the experience of a white middle class woman. The suppression is real and she has every right to fight for herself. Her fight has also benefitted me as a muslim women growing up in a different era and a different country. Because women fought for vote, it meant that I did not have to. We were given the right to vote because it became a norm in most countries. I did not have to fight for right to education either. I was automatically educated, again it became the norm. I was albeit begrudgingly admitted to university, was even allowed to choose typically male subject (engineering). In fact, the ratio of women to men in my university (predominately a STEM university) was no different to say US (where I travelled for post graduate studies ) . I am happy that I did not have to fight these battles and I thank (white) feminists for it, even if some were racists. We have our own battles, from fighting mandatory hijab to street harassment, to unfair divorce laws. I am mightily glad that we do not have to fight from square one.

Yes there are times that what is called as white feminism can transgress. But those are not the times when white women are fighting for rights that might only affect a subset of women they belong to in short term. They transgress when they advocate to invade my birth country to free the women. They transgress (in my opinion and I understand that many disagree) when they advocate for banning hijab and hence taking agency away from muslim women. They transgress when they they simplify the experiences of my life as a muslim woman to just being a victim.

None of the above applies in this fight for women's spaces. And I feel very included that these women fight not for banning of my hijab but for spaces that I can feel comfortable taking my hijab (not me specifically as I don't wear hijab but you get my point).

Finally, among marginalised people sometimes those with more power are the only ones with a voice and that does not mean they should not use it.

It is a bit incoherent but just wanted to say you go girl to all of you (and rant a bit)

OP posts:
Elletorro · 02/03/2018 22:30

This has been such an informative thread. I found Mocha’s posts really useful and I am now well aware of my own ignorance on interesectionality.

Which is helpful to recognise as now I know I need to educate myself. There is so much new information to take in.

So thank you for this OP. I’m one of the white middle class privileged feminists who needed to be made a little uncomfortable.

hipsterfun · 02/03/2018 22:33

But surely I haven’t earned a place on the list? I don’t think I’ve been judged as being rude on Feminism Chat before Confused

Come on Jen, don’t be a tease.

hipsterfun · 02/03/2018 22:34

Does anyone know if JJ on here is the actual JJ, btw?

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 02/03/2018 22:35

Come on everyone this was a really good thread. Can't we start a separate witch hunting thread where we can all blacklist each other?

AngryAttackKittens · 02/03/2018 22:38

Alternatively when someone goes a-hunting we could all collectively agree to ignore them.

womanhuman · 02/03/2018 22:39

You don’t see enough creepy wee brackets these days.

She confirmed on Twitter it was her hipster.

QuentinSummers · 02/03/2018 22:39

I think I was number one rufus
I'm one of those posters

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 02/03/2018 22:40
AngryAttackKittens · 02/03/2018 22:45

If we're being honest I'm completely baffled by the ways JJ has been engaging with commenters here and not at all sure what to make of it other than to maybe suggest that a friend have a quiet word about self-sabotage.

thebewilderness · 02/03/2018 22:52

Some people on MN are good at the good-natured snarking. JJ is not one of those people.

hipsterfun · 02/03/2018 23:10

Since it’s Friday night fun time, I’m going to put it out there.

I think the OP was goady.

Having reRTFT, a couple of things I noticed:

The post where the OP responded to ALBOB by saying

Alittle Will reply to your post in detail but what do you think my religion is? You made an assumption about my beliefs just because I stated I come from a Muslim country?

was odd given that in her OP she wrote that

They transgress when they they simplify the experiences of my life as a muslim woman to just being a victim.

Furthermore, when Assigned was a bit rude and said FO, OP replied

Fuck off where. Do enlighten me.

I think OP was implying that Assigned was telling her to FO to somewhere. I agreed that the FO was uncalled for but I don’t believe it was meant in that way, so I call that ‘Do enlighten me’ as goady.

Since there’s one or two about (taps nose) who are on my list of people whose judgement I respect (not you JJ, soz) I’d be interested in your thoughts.

TimbuktuTimbuktu · 02/03/2018 23:12

It's a bit odd. I mean this thread started off weird but we had actually got to the point where we were having useful conversations. Now it's been totally derailed again. No need for this shit.

FrancinePefko · 02/03/2018 23:19

hipsterfun
Furthermore... Grin

hipsterfun · 02/03/2018 23:20

What?

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 02/03/2018 23:23

I definitely don't think the OP was goady. I think her point was an important and generous one and that subsequent posters have provided compelling and informative experiences and analyses on intersectional feminism from a wide variety of perspectives.

I think this thread has gone wrong because many of us are feeling undermined and bewildered by the misogyny we are being assailed by and those frustrations have found a fault line. But we are all allies here, as the OP actually points out.

FrancinePefko · 02/03/2018 23:30

hipsterfun
Do you say furthermore in conversation too?

hipsterfun · 02/03/2018 23:34

Ok, Tallulah, thank you.

May I ask why you think the OP took issue with somebody for making an assumption, when she herself had volunteered the info? Did I misread, or do we put that down to poor memory on OP’s part?

hipsterfun · 02/03/2018 23:38

No, Francine, I’d say ‘an’ anovver fuckin’ fing, right’.

Could you tell me which is correct?

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 02/03/2018 23:40

I think she did get a bit defensive but the context was that she was being mistaken for a misogynist doing the 'white feminist' silencing trick so it seemed to me a reasonable reaction.

FrancinePefko · 02/03/2018 23:41

I bet you say
^I put it to you...."
Grin

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 02/03/2018 23:44

... look, the thing is

Fgs everyone, have some gin and relax Gin

AngryAttackKittens · 02/03/2018 23:46

Hard for anyone to relax when they're freezing their arse off!

hipsterfun · 02/03/2018 23:51

Sure, if the OP was sincere, I can understand the defensiveness.

I don’t think it was fair to imply Assigned was telling her to FO to somewhere, though. That went beyond defensive.

But fair enough. If and when OP comes back I’ll offer an apology.

FrancinePefko · 02/03/2018 23:55

hipsterfun
Your tone is hilariously pompous and self-important.

Just sayin'

Furthermore ...Grin

hipsterfun · 02/03/2018 23:59

Thanks, Francine, that’s really helpful. Appreciate it.

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