Can Pro-lifers be feminists?

[DevilsAdvocate123]

I am personally pro-choice, but in my 60 years, I have encountered pro-life feminists. Many of which asked that many other feminists try to "revoke their feminist cards", since they are pro-life.

I've asked them if it were sexist to be pro-life, and they explained these points to me:

-They entirely believe in the equality of men and women
-The reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex
-If men could bear children, their opinion of abortion would be the exact same, as the reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex
-They want to save babies of all genders, as the reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex

I'm a fairly reasonable person. I've had discussions with liberals that think socialism is evil, I've had discussions with gays that believe a private business can do business with whomever it chooses, and I've talked with gun rights advocates that staunchly believe in background checks. I like to hear people out. I get things.

In this instance, I believe I understand where the pro-life feminists are coming from when they say they are still feminists.

Should the feminist community embrace these people into the community and work together, or should these people be shunned from the feminist community and not welcome?

FWIW Lonny I agree with your last post (11:00) word for word!

HotCross
TFMR is legal after 24 weeks.

I don’t want to derail with a debate about the time limit, but I do want to remind people that not every woman/girl knows she is pregnant before she reaches 24 weeks - it’s not common but it’s not unheard of either, and for teen/underage pregnancy in particular, there could be an element of denial and fear of telling someone and seeking help and advice.

But I really think that if you are anti abortion because you think that the rights of the foetus override the rights of the woman you can’t then make exceptions like rape.

Of course no one is allowed to say what others should be allowed to think and that ties into the OP in that I believe anyone who feels they are should be allowed to call themselves a feminist.

I totally agree Bertrand
I think it’s hypocritical to be anti-abortion but to make exceptions in certain circumstances.
Either you believe a foetus has rights that trump the mother’s rights or you don’t. You can’t say that a disabled foetus has fewer rights than a non-disabled foetus for example.
I don’t know a huge amount about the debate among disability rights activists but I believe there are many people who feel strongly that the exception for disability is wrong.
I agree that it’s wrong but only because I think the rule shouldn’t exist in the first place so if we scrapped the rule we wouldn’t need disablist exceptions to it.

There are degrees of pro-choice. For instance: Amy is a married woman who is 30 weeks' pregnant with a healthy foetus intentionally conceived with her husband and no medical issues. She starts an extra-marital affair, and her new partner doesn't want the complication of a baby. She wants an abortion. How many feminists agree that she should be given one?
Or - Jane and her husband Jack are excited that they are having a baby. At the scan they discover it is a girl. Jack only wants a boy, and Jane wants to please him, so she wants an abortion. How many feminists agree that she should be given one?

A lot of massive hypocrisy in this thread. If being Pro Life means being Pro forced birth. Then the ONLY feminist position on abortion is, on demand, for any reason at any point (including to term).

Lonnyvonnywilsonfrickett is completely correct any other position is illogical.

Termination should be a woman's free choice. In scenario 2 it clearly isn't, is it?

But my position is abortion to term so both women would be offered terminations in those scenarios. I'm not saying I'd be out cheering #1's choice, but I believe it is her choice to make.

Amy is a married woman who is 30 weeks' pregnant with a healthy foetus intentionally conceived with her husband and no medical issues. She starts an extra-marital affair, and her new partner doesn't want the complication of a baby. She wants an abortion.

Her choice. It may make me uncomfortable on a personal level as it's something I don't think I could do, but I'm not the one with an unwanted pregnancy so tough. Regardless, the likelihood of this scenario happening on a regular basis is vanishingly small.

Jane and her husband Jack are excited that they are having a baby. At the scan they discover it is a girl. Jack only wants a boy, and Jane wants to please him, so she wants an abortion

Jane should be supported to make an informed choice and offered counselling to help her deal with the fact her husband is an ass.

My honest gut reaction is: no. Because feminism isn't just about equality.

Its also about bodily autonomy, and being 'pro-life' (anti-abortion, anti-choice) is in direct contradiction to real equality because it denies bodily autonomy. Which still leaves us at the mercy of the patriarchy. So.

Apologies if someone has already raised that point, I haven't yet read through any of the other responses yet.

I'm a 'pro-life' feminist.

I'm just completely unconvinced that a developing human foetus, even at its earliest stages, is so devoid of humanity that it doesn't even have the most basic right to life. So, for me, the framing of the debate entirely in terms of woman's rights/reproductive rights is odd and misleading.

I have nothing but compassion for women or girls who find themselves pregnant under horrendous circumstances. But those circumstances shouldn't automatically trump other people's rights. A little like trans people with gender dysphoria - we have compassion for them but as feminists we usually don't see the solution as capitulating to everything they want at the expense of women, for example.

And following that example, using manipulative terms like 'forced birth' is just as frustrating as gender critical people being called bigots.

Funny you go on about bodily autonomy Lunar when you advocate allowing males into women's changing rooms without their consent

I think the question becomes. If for whatever reason, at 30 weeks + a woman decides she wants an abortion. Can you be a feminist and be against the womans right to choose?

Are you trying to derail a thread with spurious accusations Assigned?

Goodness.

using manipulative terms like 'forced birth'...

Amethyst how is 'forced birth' manipulative?

A woman is pregnant. She doesn't want to be. She is told she cannot do anything about it and must give birth. She is being forced to give birth against her will. That isn't manipulative, that's a factual statement.

Saying 'having an abortion is child murder' on the other hand, would be manipulative.

ALunerExplorer - Which means. If youre not for abortion, for any reason, up to full term you cant be a feminist.

Spurious? No, I don't think so. Did I get that wrong? I would be delighted if I had

Yes a bit of a derail, but that's one haddock hole in your argument about bodily autonomy

As you were

I fail to see how the “rights” of something utterly dependent on another human being to survive should come before that human being.

Fish - so you are saying that a baby that will be born tomorrow is not a human being? You call it "something".
You also seem to be saying that a woman should have the right to abort (kill) even if she has a trivial reason for doing so. Eg a woman who wants to abort a foetus because the due date of birth clashes with a pre-booked holiday should be permitted to terminate the life of the foetus? The right for a woman to go on holiday when she wants to wins over a right to live a life?
I believe in the right to abort, but not without limitation.

Spurious - oh yes.

And we'll save this for another time, because frankly, on your terms, bodily autonomy is definitely not for trans people. Quite the opposite in fact.

But lets not derail this discussion any further.

As you were too.

Sure. It's your cognitive dissonance, not mine

A woman is pregnant. She doesn't want to be. She is told she cannot do anything about it and must give birth. She is being forced to give birth against her will. That isn't manipulative, that's a factual statement.

But if she has an abortion at term she will still have to 'give birth' against her will won't she? Does 'forced birth' mean forced to actually give birth, or forced to give birth to a live baby that you don't want to be alive?

Sorry, I'm not sure that was clear. I need to explore the idea of abortion to term. It feels abhorrent to me, but logically I'm not sure.

Isn't the 24 week limit also to do with the viability of the foetus?

It all comes down to when you believe life begins. If you believe it begins at conception and the fetus is a human with rights of its own, it is reasonable to conclude that its right to live comes above the mother's right to bodily autonomy. Freedom is limited when it harms others.

I wouldn't be in favour of banning abortion but I do not think it is an extreme view for someone to hold.

I fail to see how the “rights” of something utterly dependent on another human being to survive should come before that human being. You could say that about a newborn. Newborns restrict the freedom of women also.

Sorry OP I meant to address your posts directly; so here’s why I don’t agree that any of those points from your pro life friends are feminist:

I've asked them if it were sexist to be pro-life, and they explained these points to me:

-They entirely believe in the equality of men and women

Great they believe in equality of men and women in theory. However if they thought about that for any short amount of time they will see that It’s not possible for women to have any kind of equality with men in life, their relationships, their public life- work, political representation etc without meaningful control of their own fertility (access to free contraception) and child bearing (access to free abortion and to free appropriate pregnancy care and freedom to make those choices) , otherwise women’s usually smaller, relatively weaker and child bearing biology can and will be used against us.

Eg think about how rape and forced marriage and birth are used as weapons in war against women, because only women literally bear the consequences. There is no equivalent of that, that women can impose on men. It comes back down to our biology.

-The reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex

No. It has EVERYTHING to do with sex- as in the disparity of male and female biology and how this should be viewed and controlled, in a pro life viewpoint.
It also has everything to do with sex because it is usually coupled with (religiously based) judgement about what is appropriate sexual activity on the part of women and men, involving double standards and ultimately woman-blaming and woman-punishing attitudes. Which ultimately punish their children too of course. Kind of weird for people who say they love and want to save all the babies..

-If men could bear children, their opinion of abortion would be the exact same, as the reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex

That’s equally as bad (that your pro life friend would be just as happy to opproess men if their biology was different)... but biology will never BE different so that idea is irrelevant. Saying that does not make anyone an ‘equalist’ since in this world only women (and children) are being punished by the anti- choice world view. Men will never face that problem.

-They want to save babies of all genders, as the reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex

Great! There is a so much good work they could do with the thousands of babies, children and their mothers who face a lot of practical and economic challenges and burdens and also lack of social support and stigma sometimes (often stemming from sexism which feeds in to the anti choice agenda). They could campaign and vote to stop the Tories smashing up with welfare state for a start, slashing education budgets and to start funding the NHS properly too. That would help a lot.

If anyone’s mission is ‘saving babies’ though, it’s important to know that this has literally fuck all to do with stopping or stigmatising and harassing pregnant women who want or need an abortion.

whatnow123 nobody who makes the decision to terminate a pregnancy does so lightly. But anything which treats a person like a mere vessel for reproduction is oppressive and violent.

I had a good friend who committed suicide because she was being forced to undergo a pregnancy that resulted from rape. I'm pretty immovable on this subject frankly.