Can Pro-lifers be feminists?

[DevilsAdvocate123]

I am personally pro-choice, but in my 60 years, I have encountered pro-life feminists. Many of which asked that many other feminists try to "revoke their feminist cards", since they are pro-life.

I've asked them if it were sexist to be pro-life, and they explained these points to me:

-They entirely believe in the equality of men and women
-The reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex
-If men could bear children, their opinion of abortion would be the exact same, as the reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex
-They want to save babies of all genders, as the reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex

I'm a fairly reasonable person. I've had discussions with liberals that think socialism is evil, I've had discussions with gays that believe a private business can do business with whomever it chooses, and I've talked with gun rights advocates that staunchly believe in background checks. I like to hear people out. I get things.

In this instance, I believe I understand where the pro-life feminists are coming from when they say they are still feminists.

Should the feminist community embrace these people into the community and work together, or should these people be shunned from the feminist community and not welcome?

However the physical and emotional trauma involved in giving birth and giving the child away for adoption is enormous and should not be underestimated.

But also having a late abortion and giving birth to dead babies is also traumatic. I have so many friends who have regretted their abortions. One of my friends aborted twins at 5 months. A few months later she was pregnant again and said she was "hoping she would get the twins back." Another friend of mine was being wheeled in for her abortion and changed her mind. The nursing staff were so irritated by this that she decided to go ahead anyway as she "didn't want to put anyone out". This was over 30 years ago and she still regrets that decision. Another friend of mine (from Italy, so I think birth control issues there) had 6 abortions in her teens, got married in her late twenties and was never able to carry a child after that as she was so damaged inside. She is in her late forties now and never had a family. She said she wished she had had at least one of those children, as now she will never be a mother.

When you say friends" Leilanii, I assume you mean "case studies cobbled together by SPUC"?

I guess I could sort of get to grips with a feminist pro-lifer in academic terms, although I'd imagine they're very few. But, in the context of the world today, how much suffering and poverty there is, particularly for women and children, I think it's a terribly unmeasured position.

I have so many friends who have regretted their abortions.

This is not borne out by data, and a 5-month abortion is pretty unusual.

It would be unethical to induce a baby 4 weeks before it's due for the convenience of the mother. If you're going to have the baby, have it at the right time, or just slightly early, by elective caesarian.
24 weeks is a long period of time. Why can't a woman be expected to abort in that period rather than wanting to do so later? If there are problems with abortion clinics being booked up, or women not understanding what the options rare, or whatever, that should be sorted, rather than the time limit being changed.

I'm still struggling to see how an anti-abortion stance is automatically not feminist. I mean I get that depending on how you view the foetus determines what outcome(s) you find morally acceptable or not. If the foetus is of no consequence the issue is as clear as day (and I actually envy immensely the people for whom this is the case).

For those who feel the foetus IS of consequence the whole thing is an ethical minefield, but the acceptance of that premise is in and of itself a neutral position as far as feminism is concerned. My sticking point is those making the claim that seeing a foetus as significant is in and of itself anti-feminist, as you could argue with just as much validity that given that more female foetus's are aborted than male it is inherently anti-feminist to be pro-abortion.

At 24 weeks there is a 40-70% chance of survival.
At 25 weeks there is a 50-80% chance of survival.
At 26 weeks there is a 80-90% chance of survival.

I'm still struggling to see how an anti-abortion stance is automatically not feminist. because you are denying another woman reproductive choice. A feminist may make the ethical decision that she would not have an abortion herself but she would not seek to impose that on her sisters. If you want to limit women's right to choose then that is not feminist, never has been, never will be.

Where does this reproductive choice start and end though?
Is that choice (to abort) still valid a day before birth? or even during the birth?
That's the debate many are having. You can say 'it's a woman's choice', but people are asking if it's unconditional right up to the moment of birth.
And again, what about the instance of the woman who got pregnant via a minor. What should her right be in that instance as opposed to the minor who is about to become a father via sexual abuse?

Is that choice (to abort) still valid a day before birth? or even during the birth?

The posters on here who think that is the only true feminist position would say "yes"

The reality is that those countries like the UKwhich put the mother before the foetus /baby in a life or death situation will continue to act as they do.

Pursuing this line in countries such as Venezuela or Poland or Ireland will guarantee abortion rights are kicked into the long grass for ever.

Maybe I'm biased living in the UK, but I think we've got it about right in terms of the legalities. It's a different debate regarding how easy/difficult it is for some people to access abortion services within the UK legal confines.

As I see it, the UK law's acknowledged that once a foetus reaches viability, a whole raft of issues come to the fore about the rights of the woman vs those of a potentially sustainable life. They seem to have reached a compromise that most people can live with, and if medicine discovers more about the evolution of the embryo or improves the viability of early births then the 24 week limit might be adjusted accordingly.

It just seems so dismissive to say 'it's a woman's right to terminate at ANY point she chooses, and any other view is distinctly not feminist.'
It seems patently obvious that most people have a huge grey area of morality between 0 and 40 weeks, and you don't have to be at the 40 week scale of morality to qualify as a feminist.

Maybe I'm biased living in the UK, but I think we've got it about right in terms of the legalities.

No we haven't. I bears repeating, time and again, that many women in the UK do not have access to legal safe abortion. In this climate, philosophical bleating about 'Is that choice (to abort) still valid a day before birth? or even during the birth?' is either pathetic self indulgence or reprehensible whataboutery, seeking to deflect from the reality of the denial of reproductive autonomy to many women and girls in the UK. A denial, let us remind ourselves, that the UN has stated exposes women to 'horrific situations' and systematically violates their rights.

So, what are you actually proposing. You've not said.
Are you proposing the right to terminate up to 40 weeks?
Whataboutery is necessary because there ARE circumstances you have skirted right over because it doesn't suit your argument. I'll repeat it. What happens to the sexually abusive female who got pregnant via a minor. Does she retain her rights or not?

Let's have some proper detail behind your thoughts.

I agree that the Northern Ireland exclusion is a travesty. And that's what the UN was referring to (not the UN has much credibility regarding travesties).

Getting the legalities about right is not the same as getting the practicalities right, though, is it? It's perfectly possible to be more or less content with the current legal position in (most of) the UK but also advocate for improved provision of facilities

I'm not denying anyone anything @TheNavigator as I've stated up thread my position is legal abortions for right now to prevent greater loss of life overall. However for me it's not a settled question. Furthermore every woman should have access to all the education and contraceptive options so I'm happy to shower choices in little gift wrapped boxes to every woman who needs them.

However if one makes takes the view that killing a foetus is an ethical violation then it's a violation wether it's you doing it or somebody else does. Wether that life is significant enough to justify a restriction is up to you and I can respect either position.

If your gold standard on what defines feminism is choice then that's fine but that opens up the floodgates on prostitution, pornography, paid for surrogacy and even selling your kidney. Even then by making abortion even legal there are doubtless many women forced to abort by their partners and families where is their choice?

Getting the legalities about right is not the same as getting the practicalities right, though, is it? It's perfectly possible to be more or less content with the current legal position in (most of) the UK but also advocate for improved provision of facilities

Absolutely agree.

So, what are you actually proposing. You've not said.

For all women in the UK to be able access legal, safe abortions, as women are able to do in England, Wales and Scotland. How women got pregnant should not, and in Britain does not, limit or restrict that choice.

If your gold standard on what defines feminism is choice then that's fine

Straw man. I never said feminism is not about 'gold standards' or 'choice' but access to contraception and abortion is a basic feminist demand as without control over her reproduction a woman cannot exercise control in any other area of her life.

What happens to the sexually abusive female who got pregnant via a minor. Does she retain her rights or not?

Yes. What are you suggesting? That the boy should have a say?. It makes for a hard case for him but I can't see how the father can ever be given a say in this.

For all women in the UK to be able access legal, safe abortions, as women are able to do in England, Wales and Scotland. How women got pregnant should not, and in Britain does not, limit or restrict that choice.
I think that's 99% where I am at too. You don't appear to be in favour of abortions late term (other than for matters of life preservation for the mother, or severe disabilty etc).
The only area we seem to differ on is that I don't know where I stand on a female sexual abuser. That's a particularly tricky one for me.

I don't agree with late term abortions other than for the aforementioned reasons. Even then, I can't say I'm comfortable with them, but I accept them.

Yes. What are you suggesting? That the boy should have a say?. It makes for a hard case for him but I can't see how the father can ever be given a say in this.

I genuinely don't know. I don't feel 100% comfortable that a sexual abuser retains their rights or that the abused now have a child they never agreed to. I struggle to resolve the rights and wrongs of this extremely rare instance.

If your gold standard on what defines feminism is choice then that's fine
Feminism is the radical notion that women are people. Marie Shear
This tendency to slice and dice women's rights on a case by case basis is antithetical to Feminism.

Pro lifers are not pro the life of the poor girl forced to have a child she does not want who has to go through a whole pregnancy and birth which puts her in massive physical and emotional discomfort, puts her life at risk and probably ruins it. I wouldn't have an abortion myself and am a teenage mother because of it but I am staunchly pro choice. No you CANNOT be a feminist and not care about the women having to put themselves though so much sh*t and nobody tell me you do care about those women if you don't believe in a woman's right to abortion because you don't, you will never ever be able to help masses of women go through and recover from that. Anti lifers/anti choicers disgust me.

smoken
You're wasting your breath
The "pro life" on this thread are focusing on late term abortions which was brought up by them
I agree with all you have said
Luckily women in the Uk (except NI) have the right to end a pregnancy..