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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Can Pro-lifers be feminists?

742 replies

DevilsAdvocate123 · 27/02/2018 03:34

I am personally pro-choice, but in my 60 years, I have encountered pro-life feminists. Many of which asked that many other feminists try to "revoke their feminist cards", since they are pro-life.

I've asked them if it were sexist to be pro-life, and they explained these points to me:

-They entirely believe in the equality of men and women
-The reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex
-If men could bear children, their opinion of abortion would be the exact same, as the reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex
-They want to save babies of all genders, as the reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex

I'm a fairly reasonable person. I've had discussions with liberals that think socialism is evil, I've had discussions with gays that believe a private business can do business with whomever it chooses, and I've talked with gun rights advocates that staunchly believe in background checks. I like to hear people out. I get things.

In this instance, I believe I understand where the pro-life feminists are coming from when they say they are still feminists.

Should the feminist community embrace these people into the community and work together, or should these people be shunned from the feminist community and not welcome?

OP posts:
doesthislookoddtoyou · 27/02/2018 12:18

whatnow123 nobody who makes the decision to terminate a pregnancy does so lightly

of course they do. For many people its not even a decision, its a forregone conclusion.

ALunerExplorer · 27/02/2018 12:22

Have a cup of tea and a biscuit or something Assigned. I've got a nice bit of chocolate cake here I'm happy to share - there's no need to be snippy.

windchimesabotage · 27/02/2018 12:22

I think they could be feminist if it was their own personal belief, and it was just that they tried to convince women that it was always best to try and carry on with any pregnancy.

But if they think that it should be enshrined in law that women cannot access abortion services except in extreme situations then I do not think they are a feminist. Even if they consider themselves to be.

I think the issue is over 'force'
Any woman who would have another woman forced to bear a child against her wishes is not a feminist.

Felicitycity · 27/02/2018 12:25

People have different standpoints as to when they think a child has the right to live regardless of the wishes of the mother. For some this is at the moment of conception, for others it is at the current 24 week cut off point. Personally I don't think feminism has anything to do with it.

Amethyst975 · 27/02/2018 12:27

*Amethyst how is 'forced birth' manipulative?

A woman is pregnant. She doesn't want to be. She is told she cannot do anything about it and must give birth. She is being forced to give birth against her will. That isn't manipulative, that's a factual statement.*

I find it a manipulative term because it ignores the fact that abortion is actually a complex debate, in which many people think there is more to it than straightforward rights for the woman involved.

Saying 'having an abortion is child murder' on the other hand, would be manipulative.

I agree. That is also a manipulative turn of phrase.

mummyhaschangedhername · 27/02/2018 12:27

Do you really have to be pro life or pro choice? Is there not middle ground?

I mean I believe;
Life starts at conception
That abortion should not be used as a contraceptive option
That no woman should be forced to give birth
That the life of the woman does out weigh that of the foetus (because the foetus is entirely dependant on the woman)
That there are many many reasons why brining a baby into the world is not in the best interests of any of them
That abortion should not be the only option considered
That removing the option of abortion the you are doing far more harm then good
That every case and circumstance is unique

Abortion would never be an option I would actively encourage, but equally, everyone has the right to chose and no one should affect that choice. So not really sure where I exist?

I would consider myself a feminist although I don't like the term personally. I believe in equality for all, no would should be unfairly treated based on sex, or colour, race, sexuality, or class.

So who knows, I guess I just don't like labels much. I'm more in the middle ground I guess.

ALunerExplorer · 27/02/2018 12:31

of course they do. For many people its not even a decision, its a forregone conclusion.

No, they don't. I've heard that one for years from people anxious who want to see legal rights to abortion in the country completely repealed, as have comrades in Ireland right now. But then, most anti-choice arguments are entirely emotive, and have little or nothing to do with the welfare of the woman, who is regarded as little more than a vessel for reproduction.

Amethyst975 · 27/02/2018 12:32

I fail to see how the “rights” of something utterly dependent on another human being to survive should come before that human being.

And that's a great point.

All I'm saying is that I'm concerned that abortion is fast becoming a #nodebate subject within feminism, when there are still widely held differing viewpoints.

ALunerExplorer · 27/02/2018 12:33

Sorry, that first sentence is a bit of a mess. I've heard that from people anxious to repeal legal rights to abortion in this country, is what its supposed to say. (I've probably overdone the chocolate cake consumption this morning! Grin )

BertrandRussell · 27/02/2018 12:35

If your reason for being opposed to abortion is that rights of the foetus trump the rights of the woman there can be no exceptions. And vice versa.

A woman can want an abortion for reasons that I think trivial, but it is not my decision, it is hers. This is all incredibly difficult to think about, but it really comes down to a simple binary choice.

doesthislookoddtoyou · 27/02/2018 12:38

No, they don't. I've heard that one for years from people anxious who want to see legal rights to abortion in the country completely repealed, as have comrades in Ireland right now. But then, most anti-choice arguments are entirely emotive, and have little or nothing to do with the welfare of the woman, who is regarded as little more than a vessel for reproduction

yes, they do, and its a pro choice argument. That tired old trope that every woman has to anguish and agonise before regretfully choosing abortion...its purest bollocks. Many woman say "fuck, I'm pregnant, book the abortion".

Endofsummer · 27/02/2018 12:38

No. It’s an anti woman stance.

Kind of like saying women should be paid less but I’m still a feminist.

I live in Ireland and I tell you it’s depressing, the prolife stance is a direct reflection of the oppressive, male religious dominated culture here. I would also say I find the female prolifers much more down on women than the men prolifers I’ve met.

windchimesabotage · 27/02/2018 12:40

I really dont think it can be a debatable thing. I mean in terms of altering the law. Surely what another woman does with her body should not be dictated by anyone else. Thats what it comes down to. Having a personal belief is fine, trying to convince people to also believe that is fine. But actively forcing people to live by your beliefs is not fine at all and cannot be considered feminist because feminism has fought for a long long time for women to have complete control over their bodies. No one should be supporting any laws which take individual womens control over what happens to their own bodies, away from them. The power for abuse is too easy and also as pp have said doing that makes many women suffer as women will turn to desperate measures to get rid of their baby... a lot of it has to do with poverty or cultural pressures or pressures or fear from men around them and you stand to make these situations worse when abortion is illegal. So even if morally you dont agree with the choice the impact of taking that choice away causes far far more harm than could ever be justifiable even if you dont think abortion is the 'right' thing to do.

I was raised Catholic and I woul personally never have an abortion but the thought of women being prevented from having them and what situations that might put them in and how it may lead them to be controlled utterly in other ways just repulses me. That eclipses my own personal feelings about responsibility to potential lives. We have more of a responsibility to the lives already here.

ALunerExplorer · 27/02/2018 12:41

Here's something from last year: women in Arkansas now need to seek the permission of the men who impregnated them before they can get an abortion. So bugger all equality there then.

www.independent.co.uk/News/world/americas/women-arkansas-abortion-men-permission-male-us-pro-choice-life-planned-parenthood-termination-a7834861.html

EndofSummer · 27/02/2018 12:42

I had a good friend who committed suicide because she was being forced to undergo a pregnancy that resulted from rape. I'm pretty immovable on this subject frankly. I’m sorry lunar, that sounds awful.

BeyondDeadlySiren · 27/02/2018 12:42

I know a feminist who is pro life. I was rather surprised when I found out as she's very...hard core.

But she is (as I understand it) on the side of any foetus=life and wanting increased contraception and assistance for the women who do end up unhappily pregnant, and will also not actively campaign against abortion. I don't personally understand it, but at least her views are consistent. I'm always puzzled by the proTFMR, pro-rape-abortions, anti-anything-else viewpoints.

Amethyst975 · 27/02/2018 12:44

If your reason for being opposed to abortion is that rights of the foetus trump the rights of the woman there can be no exceptions. And vice versa.

I think it's more about balancing the right to life for the foetus with whatever rights are in question for the woman. That's going to look slightly different in each individual case.

ALunerExplorer · 27/02/2018 12:58

EndofSummer thanks. Yes it was. We were 18 when it happened, and whilst I cant any longer support women going to abortion clinics (because of disability), it led to quite a few of us (her friends) getting into that kind of work. The cost of giving any ground on this would be far too high, and its not a price I want to see paid ever again. I am rooting for comrades in Ireland right now, who are fighting hard to #repealthe8th.

BeyondDeadlySiren · 27/02/2018 13:06

Lunar, I'm sorry about your friend (sorry - I'd missed it your post on first read through). I had truly shit pregnancies mh-wise and it was only the fact that they were planned and wanted that kept me this side of suicide, if they weren't I have no doubt that I'd be dead. It's my experience that makes me so far to the opposite side of pro life that I take no issue with the intended insult "pro abortion" being thrown at me. Yes, I would rather any woman abort at any time than go through what I did.

ALunerExplorer · 27/02/2018 13:28

As would I Beyond. And I'm so sorry you went through that. So much of the mh conversation around pregnancy and birth is around post-natal depression, (and that matters enormously) - but we don't talk enough about the mh needs during pregnancy, or the impact of pregnancy on mental health. I've seen first hand the shaming of women who are pregnant and are anything but 'glowing and radiant'. I do hope you're okay now and that you have the support you need. And sending cyber hugs to you.

BeyondDeadlySiren · 27/02/2018 13:40

Ah yes I'm pretty much okay now, thanks Flowers

Original poster
DevilsAdvocate123 · 27/02/2018 13:45

Hey all, l saw some interesting counterpoints to the points mentioned in my original post. The pro-life feminists I've talked to have essentially been hit with all of these points. Let me break it down where these people are coming from:

"It's against the mothers right to bodily autonomy"
Pro-lifers believe that abortion is against the unborn life's right to bodily autonomy. The cure (murder) is actually worse than the initial problem (an unwanted pregnancy).

"What about in cases where the mother can't support the child"?
The mother's financial well-being doesn't play a role in determining if it is a life or not.

"What about in cases of rape?"
The mother being raped or not doesn't play a role in determining if it is a life or not.

"What about life threatening conditions?"
Pro-lifers actually agree that this is the only exception for somebody getting an abortion. And yes, being suicidal is a life-threatening condition.

OP posts:
Original poster
DevilsAdvocate123 · 27/02/2018 13:52

And again, to them, these viewpoints would be exactly the same if men could bear children

OP posts:
Original poster
DevilsAdvocate123 · 27/02/2018 13:53

If this is their philosophical reasoning, then I genuinely believe that these people aren't coming from a place of sexism.

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ALunerExplorer · 27/02/2018 13:59

That tired old trope that every woman has to anguish and agonise before regretfully choosing abortion...its purest bollocks. Many woman say "fuck, I'm pregnant, book the abortion".

That argument is entirely rooted in trying to shame the person seeking the abortion. Most anti-choice arguments are. That's why the language used is so emotive.

The only way to reduce the need for abortion is to make sure that there is free unfettered access to contraception and healthcare,(something which some anti-choice campaigners oppose), and to remove any and all barriers to bodily autonomy, including sexual violence.