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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Can Pro-lifers be feminists?

742 replies

DevilsAdvocate123 · 27/02/2018 03:34

I am personally pro-choice, but in my 60 years, I have encountered pro-life feminists. Many of which asked that many other feminists try to "revoke their feminist cards", since they are pro-life.

I've asked them if it were sexist to be pro-life, and they explained these points to me:

-They entirely believe in the equality of men and women
-The reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex
-If men could bear children, their opinion of abortion would be the exact same, as the reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex
-They want to save babies of all genders, as the reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex

I'm a fairly reasonable person. I've had discussions with liberals that think socialism is evil, I've had discussions with gays that believe a private business can do business with whomever it chooses, and I've talked with gun rights advocates that staunchly believe in background checks. I like to hear people out. I get things.

In this instance, I believe I understand where the pro-life feminists are coming from when they say they are still feminists.

Should the feminist community embrace these people into the community and work together, or should these people be shunned from the feminist community and not welcome?

OP posts:
Leilaniiii · 27/02/2018 07:38

But what about the baby's body autonomy?

NameChange30 · 27/02/2018 07:47

“But what about the baby's body autonomy?”
😂
Interested to know how you can have bodily autonomy when you are inside another person’s body and getting all your oxygen and nutrients from them!!

VikingVolva · 27/02/2018 07:52

I doesn't actually matter at which point you, as an individual, decide that an embryo/foetus/baby became a person in its own right.

The question is whether a particular viewpoint means you cannot be feminist.

There are many permutations of laws around TOPs, and I would be very cautious if saying that those who support models I don't particularly like are somehow not allowed to identify themselves as feminists.

Remember - this thread started out about whether feminism is a concept that can embrace differing viewpoints.

I would like to see it able to do so.

NameChange30 · 27/02/2018 07:57

What’s the point of feminism though if we insist on embracing every single viewpoint? What about misogynist, sexist viewpoints? There have to be some basic principles that are not negotiable.

As I said in my first post, I don’t think we should shut down the abortion rights debate, I think we should engage in it.

I think someone who is anti-abortion can still be a feminist when it comes to other issues, but the anti-abortion position can never be a feminist position.

Leilaniiii · 27/02/2018 07:59

Emma I meant autonomy of rights, meaning the baby's right to life.

ChattyLion · 27/02/2018 08:08

Well no ones ever given me a feminist card, but

The anti choice lobby are all about punishing women (of the wrong, unmarried sort) for having sex (of the wrong, unmarried sort). And then heaping on condemnation for the women not wanting to ‘take their punhisment’ ie become a mother. Which is a highly derogatory way to think about children and women’s lives of course.
You can tell all that by how few of the pro life lobby ever give a shit to help or advocate about the exact same women if they were to keep their babies. I see very very few pro life outreach supporters specifically for single women with kids.

Of course this support of lone parents would be expensive complex work and it is a lot easier and apparently gets you much more pro life kudos to stand outside abortion clinics shouting and harassing and pestering and following the women and filming them. And the men who protest there are often perving because they get to know they are looking at women who have had sex and judge them.
None of which is feminist.

But there are a very few pro life points about surrogacy and egg donation which could appear to come from a feminist place and so I wonder if even a stopped, antichoice clock might tell the right time, every so often.

Spam88 · 27/02/2018 08:15

At first I thought I could see where they're coming from...but no, you can't separate the issues can you? You can't say the sex of the person carrying the baby is irrelevant to your stance on abortion, because it's always going to be a woman. Especially since the fact that women are the ones who bear children is a major factor in our inequality.

BigDeskBob · 27/02/2018 08:30

The bottom line is who's choice is it? The women's, the state, the fathers? Anything other than the woman choice isn't a feminist one. How can women be liberated when forced into pregnancy?

LineysHorseWithNoName · 27/02/2018 08:33

'Pro-life' is a meaningless term.

Women who have had abortions aren't suddenly 'anti-life' - and it's an offensive implication, really.

Secretsquirrel252 · 27/02/2018 08:34

Nope.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 27/02/2018 08:37

"But surely you can be pro-women's rights and pro-children's rights"

I think actually you can't. At some point the choice has to be made

Ultimately some women are going to have abortions regardless of whether they are legal or not, which is extremely dangerous. What good does it do to put these women's lives at risk when in all liklihood the babies will die anyway

There are no 'good' choices in the abortion debate. The best that can be done is providing good education and provision for contraception and facilities for abortion when required with the hope/aim that the requirement for abortion will be viewed as a last option

whitecandles · 27/02/2018 08:39

I don't like sticking labels all over people - or indeed, ripping them off.

As soon as you get into 'you're not a feminist because' or 'you're an MRA because' or 'you're a SJW because' there can't be any kind of discussion.

While I find being anti-choice quite a strange concept, if another woman has her reasons for it, then so be it. It's not up to me to start saying how she can and can't define herself. I'd rather just discuss it and see how she came to that conclusion.

I'm sure there are many who would say I'm not allowed to be a feminist cos I bleach my hair or whatever.

And we all know how tiring it is to be thrown out of the feminist club for not believing that transwomen are 'real' women.

So personally, I live and let live.

BigDeskBob · 27/02/2018 08:48

People against TOP aren't 'live and let live', they are forcing a women to be pregnant against her will.

LangCleg · 27/02/2018 08:48

It's anti-choice not pro-life, as others have said.

You can be against abortion for yourself but I don't see feminism in supporting the restriction of bodily autonomy for other women.

HerFemaleness · 27/02/2018 08:50

It depends. If they're pro-life with regards to their own bodies then that's fine. If they want to take away choice from other women this is not fine. I would struggle with a feminist who didn't agree with what is basically a cornerstone of women's liberation, i.e the right to control our fertility.

whitecandles · 27/02/2018 08:51

BigDesk I didn't say they were live and let live, I said I was.

BertrandRussell · 27/02/2018 08:52

“I'm sure there are many who would say I'm not allowed to be a feminist cos I bleach my hair or whatever.”

There absolutely aren’t!

The fundamental question is “Do you think that women should have the final say in what happens to their own bodies, or should someone else? Yes or no” If you say no, then you can’t be a feminist.

And pragmatically, you can’t ban abortion. You can only ban safe abortion.

LineysHorseWithNoName · 27/02/2018 08:52

Basically, OP, if YOU don't want an abortion, don't have one. But don't think that makes you 'pro life' or some kind of progressive feminist - it makes you just another person for whom insulting women is part of the politics.

whitecandles · 27/02/2018 08:53

Bertrand There absolutely are, though. Plenty of feminists who'll turn up their nose at women who dress a certain way, look a certain way, act a certain way. I walked in and straight back out of one meeting because a woman looked me up and down and said 'you can't be serious'.

RollTopBath · 27/02/2018 08:57

OF course you can be anti-abortion or want limitations on gestational age at which abortion is legal and still support equality.

There is, I guess, a theoretical argument that the foetus was created from man and woman in equal parts and both should have custody over it. That won’t be a popular view!
Technically the debate has to centre on when life begins - and that differs for many people. If one is minded to believe conception is the start of life then the foetus has rights from that stage. Including the right to life. If it’s from viability, then it’s about legal limits on abortion timings.
Can you be equal to your male partner but share decisions over pregnancy and children? Of course.

BigDeskBob · 27/02/2018 08:58

Sorry, whites, I misunderstood Smile

Dinosauratemydaffodils · 27/02/2018 08:58

I'm anti-choice on a personal level (too much indoctrination as a child/teenager) but I find the idea of telling another woman what she must do with her body hugely uncomfortable. Pregnancy and birth can be hard, terrifying and dangerous, forcing someone to go through that for a child they do not want/might not be compatible with life is utterly horrendous and should not happen in the 21st century.

I support education about contraception, ante-natal testing and support for women who do want to carry to term and better peri-natal mental health support but if the Government tried to repeal the Abortion act I would actively campaign against it.

Pro children's rights once they are out of your body and breathing on their own absolutely. Before then, they have no rights as far as I'm concerned and I say that as someone who is 25 weeks pregnant. Do I do what I think is best for the baby, absolutely but there is a reason why I get to accept/decline all the tests/treatments on our behalf.

LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett · 27/02/2018 09:04

I think there are a lot of areas around feminism where there is a broad spectrum of opinion and choice. This isn't one of them. If you don't support a woman's right to free and safe abortion then I don't believe you can be a feminist. It's kind of the central tenant.

Whether you would terminate a pregnancy yourself is a different story but if your feminism doesn't support a woman's right to choose it is bullshit. Substitute 'forced birth' for 'pro life' and it all becomes clearer.

Where do I get my card, by the way?

Fishfingersandwichnocheese · 27/02/2018 09:06

I don’t see how you can be a feminist if you support the idea of a woman being forced to carry a pregnancy and all the risks associated with that and the subsequent birth - including her death - against her will.

BertrandRussell · 27/02/2018 09:08

“Bertrand There absolutely are, though. Plenty of feminists who'll turn up their nose at women who dress a certain way, look a certain way, act a certain way. I walked in and straight back out of one meeting because a woman looked me up and down and said 'you can't be serious'.

The only people I have ever, in 40 years as a feminist, heard tell someone they can’t be a feminist because of the way they dress are anti feminists. The “Call yourself a feminist- you’re wearing make up!” brigade. There are plenty of them.