Can Pro-lifers be feminists?

[DevilsAdvocate123]

I am personally pro-choice, but in my 60 years, I have encountered pro-life feminists. Many of which asked that many other feminists try to "revoke their feminist cards", since they are pro-life.

I've asked them if it were sexist to be pro-life, and they explained these points to me:

-They entirely believe in the equality of men and women
-The reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex
-If men could bear children, their opinion of abortion would be the exact same, as the reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex
-They want to save babies of all genders, as the reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex

I'm a fairly reasonable person. I've had discussions with liberals that think socialism is evil, I've had discussions with gays that believe a private business can do business with whomever it chooses, and I've talked with gun rights advocates that staunchly believe in background checks. I like to hear people out. I get things.

In this instance, I believe I understand where the pro-life feminists are coming from when they say they are still feminists.

Should the feminist community embrace these people into the community and work together, or should these people be shunned from the feminist community and not welcome?

There is, I guess, a theoretical argument that the foetus was created from man and woman in equal parts and both should have custody over it. That won’t be a popular view!

Well of course it won't, because you are literally ignoring the fact that it is the woman carrying the child. The fact that a man donated 50% of the DNA to the foetus absolutely does not give him the right to determine what she does with her own body. It isn't a parenting decision at all

I d9nt want to debate the rights and wrongs of termination.

I think it's wrong for the reasons I've given. Many women think the law doesn't go far enough in allowing it.

I think the law should be changed to lower the gestational age that abortion is permitted but it is legal in the UK up until 24 weeks and no woman should be criticised for having one. For similar reasons I also wouldn't approach a woman considering an abortion with my viewpoint. She's having a legally allowed medical procedure which is none of my business and thus I keep my thoughts private.

LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett And who else is entitled to this equality? Black people, disabled people, poor people? Basically everyone but not infant children?

We aren't talking about infant children. We are talking about fetuses. But that's a nice piece of whattabouttery.

We aren't talking about infant children. We are talking about fetuses.

A foetus IS a child. Just because you call it by a different name, that does not make it not so.

For instance, if you had a friend who miscarried a baby at, say, 23 weeks gestation. What would you say to her? "Oh, it was only a foetus."

There is, I guess, a theoretical argument that the foetus was created from man and woman in equal parts and both should have custody over it. That won’t be a popular view!

Well of course it won't, because you are literally ignoring the fact that it is the woman carrying the child. The fact that a man donated 50% of the DNA to the foetus absolutely does not give him the right to determine what she does with her own body. It isn't a parenting decision at all

How about we start with men (allmen) doing 50% of the child care, and when men (allmen) start paying their fair share of actual born children after a relationship breakdown and considering their current children before having more with someone else then we consider their "parental rights"?

I won't hold my breath.

I'm pro-life. I believe a foetus is a human life from the point of conception and therefore only agree with termination in exceptional circumstances (rape, TFMR).

When you say you 'only agree' do you mean you just think its morally wrong to have an abortion but sometimes in life things do not always go as you would hope, or do you mean you would like to see abortion made illegal except in the cases you mentioned?

Also why do you make an exception for rape? It's not the foetuses fault that it was conceived as a product of rape? Is the value of the foetus purely dependent on how it was conceived?

I believe that human life begins at conception. Nevertheless I cannot oppose safe, accessible abortion. It's taken me a while to boil it down to 'who decides?' and 'whose rights take precedence until when?'

I see being pro choice as one aspect of feminism rather than its central tenet. Pro lifers can therefore be feminists IMO.

I think the law should be changed to lower the gestational age that abortion is permitted but it is legal in the UK up until 24 weeks and no woman should be criticised for having one.

Sorry, I didn't read this post. What age do you believe the limit should be? Genuine questions by the way, sorry I know it can get a bit goady on the subject of abortion but I am interested in viewpoints different to my own.

For instance, if you had a friend who miscarried a baby at, say, 23 weeks gestation. What would you say to her? "Oh, it was only a foetus."

No because I'm polite. Just the way I wouldn't say "well at least you didn't have a miscarriage" to a woman TTC who got her period. Doesn't mean it isn't a fetus. When does it become a child to you? You can get a chemical pregnancy positive and be sad about it but you certainly haven't lost a child.

A fetus really isn't a child by any definition. Nor is it an infant.

No Leilaniiii I don't believe a fetus is a child. Just because YOU call it by a different name, that does not make it so.

There is a significant difference between losing a wanted child at 23 weeks and ending an unwanted pregnancy and - amazingly! - I am able to adjust my response accordingly because I am not a fool.

I don't know anyone who had a late abortion that didn't have it because the fetus wasn't viable or would have been very ill or life of the mother was at risk. Unfortunately the twenty week scan isn't always performed dead on 20 weeks and then you need to give them both time to process and make their decision. Certainly would never want to be in the shoes of a woman in that situation and consider myself very lucky to have never been.

And who else is entitled to this equality? Black people, disabled people, poor people? Basically everyone but not infant children?

Basically everyone that isn't physically dependent on residing inside another person, requiring that other person to risk their health and well-being in order to keep them alive, and then risk, at the very least significant pain, and at the worst, death in order to give them life, when that isn't what that other person wants to do with their body. Im pretty sure pregnancy is the only situation this happens. It is not a question of equality that can be answered by drawing from other situations.

Infant children do have the right to live. Regardless of how emotive you want to be, a foetus is not an infant. They have not been born so legally they are not an infant, and common understanding of the word is for babies that have been born. TOP does not kill an infant in any sense of the word. At most it removes to possibility of an infant in the future.

Also why do you make an exception for rape? It's not the foetuses fault that it was conceived as a product of rape?

If you killed someone whilst defending yourself I wouldn't think it right you be convicted of murder. Abortion in the case of rape is also, in my opinion, a form of self defense even though the "victims" are innocent in this case there are very likely to be strong, ongoing emotional and mental problems for both the mother and the child if born following a rape.

What age do you believe the limit should be

I don't have enough scientific knowledge to give a precise age but some babies born prior to 24 weeks are now surviving and therefore I think it should be sooner (unless for medical reasons as these are often not detected until later in a pregnancy)

I think you can. At some point up to 24 weeks the majority of people do believe that the baby/foetus takes priotity over a woman wanting an abortion. People who are pro-life just believe that happens earlier.

So unless you agree with abortions up to term then women don’t have 100% bodily autonomy anyway.

Actually I do believe in abortion up to term - I think any other position is illogical.

But 'just' believing fetal rights take precedence over women's isn't a small thing. It goes to the heart of what feminism is about and I believe anything that takes away women's rights is deeply unfeminist. And that's what this thread is about, it's not about debating current law around time-limits. The question posted was 'is being pro-life a feminist position?'

I don't believe it is.

And again, substitute forced birth for pro life and see how feminist that feels...

Yes sorry I didn’t mean to sound flippant, I’m not pro-life but I agree with the limit.

If you said unless you believe in abortion up to term you can’t be a feminist you’d be excluding an awful lot of people.

Not sure if that’s what people are saying or if they just mean up to the limit.

If you killed someone whilst defending yourself I wouldn't think it right you be convicted of murder. Abortion in the case of rape is also, in my opinion, a form of self defense even though the "victims" are innocent in this case there are very likely to be strong, ongoing emotional and mental problems for both the mother and the child if born following a rape.

What about strong ongoing emotional and mental problems following a pregnancy that a woman simply didn't want to go through with, even if she consented to the sex that caused the conception? What if she was forced to go through with a pregnancy that she didn't want to, and then the birth was awful and left her with life long injuries? Forcing someone to go through medical procedures against their consent is barbaric.

Would you agree with forced organ donation so that lives could be saved? Everyone on a database and if your kidney for example was a match, then you have to donate it because otherwise someone innocent will die?

I appreciate posters will become goady with me because my view is against the popular one on Mumsnet.

The idea of forced organ donation is entirely different to abortion and my opinion on it is not relevant to this thread.

I have to say, I'm not in favour of abortion up to term. Maybe that's illogical, but I just think that 24 weeks is a good limit, because it gives enough time after 20 week scan for any decisions to be made. The number of women who have an abortion at that sort of time just because they don't want to be pregnant any more, with no other medical or major psychological issues, is pretty much zero.

I have to be honest and say I though abortion was legal after 24 weeks in the case of severe birth defects.

harla yeah, I'm aware that abortion to term isn't a popular opinion and it's one it took a lot of soul-searching to arrive at. For me, it's that if I trust women to make their own decisions up to 24 weeks I have to keep trusting women to make their own decisions right up to 40 weeks. To then take that autonomy away feels wrong.

But I know many will disagree and don't want to derail with my opinions on time limits. I can accept that I'm out of step with many people and many feminists on time limits, what I can't accept is people seeking to reduce limits further.

Abortion to term is legal for fetal abnormality and where the pregnancy poses a risk to the woman's life. It's not legal for 'social' reasons after 24 weeks.

Always worth stating when we talk about abortion in the UK that our sisters in Ireland don't have the same rights, of course.

Thanks for clarifying Lonny.

“I appreciate posters will become goady with me because my view is against the popular one on Mumsnet.”

Nobody should be goady with you. They might disagree with you. A very different thing.

And actually, I think you view is quite a common one on Mumsnet.