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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I don’t like the term “peak trans”

398 replies

Amoregentlemanlikemanner · 20/02/2018 21:44

I mean I get it. But I think your term should be peak TRA.

“Peak- “ is, as I understand it, a reference to the term “ peak oil” with all the connotations of the amount of oil reducing down to nothing.

Which is not, I hope, the way anyone feels about trans people.

Just my take on things

OP posts:
Amoregentlemanlikemanner · 24/02/2018 11:48

“Frankly, the very fact that the term peak trans infuriates transactivists makes it good enough for me.”
I see that. I’m (obviously) not in that place.

I take your point though about how one nice person can’t excuse a whole class of people.

Your last line hits home with me: men blame women for objecting to other men’s behaviour rather than blaming other men.

OP posts:
lottiegarbanzo · 24/02/2018 11:54

And I can't help myself from adding, that I find your walking into a room where a specialist discussion is taking place and saying 'your term should be this, not that', then being amazed when the subject-specialists don't immediately agree with you and, that they find your action in striding in and telling them this socially clunky at least, domineering and an attempt to silence them at most - incredible.

Now, you may well think that you are an equally legitimate participant in this discussion, that you are entering a space you're free to enter and in which you'd hope to be welcomed. But, given that you are entering a room where a specialist discussion is already taking place, wouldn't you think to start by introducing yourself, then asking questions? Wouldn't you make sure you'd got the measure of the discussion and tuned into its tone, before saying 'I was wondering, has anyone thought about it like this?'.

I know you did start out in a 'wondering' tone but you progressed very quickly into telling people what responses were and were not acceptable to you and expressing amazement that the specialists actually used their preferred term for a reason! Surely, assuming that other people know what they're talking about is a standard starting point, not a surprise?

I've found reading about why that is many people's preferred term really interesting and informative, as well as why others like it less. So you got your discussion and thanks for sharing it. I hope you've gained as much from it as I have.

Amoregentlemanlikemanner · 24/02/2018 12:01

I can’t read your tone here Lottie.

Fwiw, yes, I absolutely have a right to start a mumsnet thread bringing my flawed self just as I am. I’ve been doing so for ten years and will continue to do so. No one has to reply and there is no “edit the OP” function on mumsnet.

We used to get randoms wandering on to a certain other board on the site at a time when it was pretty close knit. No one responded.

OP posts:
LangCleg · 24/02/2018 12:05

I suspect that many of the people with nice trans friends who we should all be nice to are mistaking "happy that you're doing and saying what they want you to" for "nice".

I think this is very true. I have had trenchant conversations with the trans people I know. I think it's important we all do that. Happy to report no adverse incidents!

Recently, I have been observing a trained social worker interact with trans people online, using their training to expose any disordered thinking. The aim, I think, has been to demonstrate to onlookers how unstable some trans people are. And it has honestly just taken them one or two exchanges to get these people to at best confirm that they don't think women should have boundaries pertaining to them and that women's consent is irrelevant, to more often, a tidal wave of vicious narcissistic rage.

These people pose a significant risk to women. It's not really the trans identity that poses that risk, I don't think. It's the personality disorder behind it. It's a personality disorder shared by all male pattern offenders - the same one behind domestic abuse and the same one behind sex offending.

The problem is that the self-ID movement has allowed in non-dysphoric AGP men who are more likely to have this personality disorder than the rest of the male population. It has also attracted people with this type of disordered personality to identify as trans when otherwise, they would have sought other avenues to express it.

It is dangerous for women to say no to such people - whether they present as trans or not.

Amoregentlemanlikemanner · 24/02/2018 12:07

Terfinator,

So you are saying that sometimes you have to just stop putting the needs of particular individuals first because the needs of the wider class are ignored?
Even though you may like, feel sorry for and be friends with particular individuals?

If I think about things other than trans for a bit, I might be getting what you say. However I am slightly embarrassed by the only example I can give as it is very “first world problem” so will wait to see if you want to hear it!

OP posts:
lottiegarbanzo · 24/02/2018 12:09

My tone is 'I find this an interesting observation that I'm going to share, even if it does sound a bit blunt', not 'how dare you'. Anyway, enough from me I think.

Amoregentlemanlikemanner · 24/02/2018 12:14

Ok!

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 24/02/2018 12:15

The problem is that the self-ID movement has allowed in non-dysphoric AGP men who are more likely to have this personality disorder than the rest of the male population. It has also attracted people with this type of disordered personality to identify as trans when otherwise, they would have sought other avenues to express it.

This for me is the heart of the issue.

Datun · 24/02/2018 13:34

Amoregentlemanlikemanner

Maybe you haven't been exposed to as much of this shit as some other people on here.

This is an interesting site.

terfisaslur.com/

The term TERF being largely aimed at women. Men who disagree with the ideology don't tend to have the term levelled them, and do not get anywhere near the amount of abuse that women do.

BeyondTerfyCassandra · 24/02/2018 13:49

Sorry my point wasn’t clear enough. I hope this helps...

You are here trying to police language:

I think the way to think of it is, why score own goals by using terms like this. I think it would be good to take more care

You compared it to climate change denial...

I had a similar problem when fellow environmentalists started using the term “climate change denier“

And the apparent vague association of “denial” with nazism, that seems to be upsetting people...

ordinary people felt like they were being accused of being Nazis...

So I was wondering - as you are unhappy with our language here - how much success you were having in stopping men actually calling women nazis with the “feminazi” insult?

As obviously this is a concern of yours if the slightly less obviously insulting “peak” and “denier” upset you this much.

Terfinater · 24/02/2018 14:49

So you are saying that sometimes you have to just stop putting the needs of particular individuals first because the needs of the wider class are ignored
Even though you may like, feel sorry for and be friends with particular individuals

Yes.

That doesn't mean we need to be unkind to trans people. But we don't need to feel sorry for them either. Nearly all trans people claim to have been assaulted in the toiIets. Is it really fair that your male friends (and he is a man) feelings take priority over the many women he encounters in women's s spaces?

Things change when you start to question what trans really is. In men trans is caused by either Agp or homosexuality. The general idea is that the homosexual men are our "harmless" trans freinds and Agps are fetishists and perverts.

I don't know which your trans friend is , but assuming he is a homosexual man, is it really ok that he expects women to sacrifice their privacy, safety and distort reality by pretending he's a woman? Women don't need to feel sorry and coddle these gay men. Gay men can be just as entitled and mysogynistic as straight men.

I'm very surprised you havent felt unsafe around men very often. I think its more likeley that you live your life in such a way that you minimize the risk, and like all of us you probably do that without realizing.

Do you walk home late at night on your own? Do you avoid wearing certain clothes because it might attract unwanted attention? Do you avoid being alone with certain men in some situations? Have you ever had sex that you didn't really want to keep a man happy?

Ten per cent of men are rapists. We probably all know one. What people like your friend are doing by being in Women's spaces is asking us to increase the risk of meeting one. That's not acceptable and in my mind, it's pathological. It's cowardly, selfish and it's using women as a human sheild.

Have you ever discussed these issues with your friend? Happy to hear about your first world problem Smile

Terfinater · 24/02/2018 15:14

Welcome to mumsnet Mumsmith.

Amoregent, it's not necessarily about whether we have been assaulted or might be assaulted.It's about how much budging over we already do and are expected to keep doing. It's about how women are socialized to put men first and be nice.

Ever been mansplained at? Manspreaded? Ever strongly disagreed with a man but been too intimidated to say anything? Ever been told to smile love or cheer up? Have you found yourself subconsciously putting the needs of the men in your life above your own? Do you have to walk round the men in the street because they won't move? Have you ever politely thanked that creepy dude for his compliment on your appearance?

I certainly have, and I'm sick of it. I'm not here to pamper the men in my life and they can fuck off if they dont like it. I'm definitely not willing to pamper the man that I don't know in the women's toilets. He can fuck off too. And it's this attitude from these men, the expectation that women that they don't even know will shove their feelings down their throat that makes me dislike them so much.

Amoregentlemanlikemanner · 24/02/2018 15:28

Datsun,
You are correct, I haven’t.
I did follow a link to that site.
Truthfully (no point in lying here) itfeels very extreme, extraordinary, far away from me and mine....it feels very London apart from anything else.
I am not saying this is right or bright, just being truthful.

OP posts:
Amoregentlemanlikemanner · 24/02/2018 15:40

Cassandra I can’t answer you because I don’t understand what you are saying. I would have to make wild guesses and we would just end up at cross purposes.

I am very comfortable with commenting on and critiquing other people’s language where I think there is a point worth making.

And I don’t mind having having mine criticised in response. So, for instance, I think that whoever said I sounded like a fucking patronising schoolteacher was being very forceful (to put it mildly) but straight. It’s like having someone look you in eyes and tell you what they actually think. It’s honest.

OP posts:
Terfinater · 24/02/2018 15:43

That was me. It was a bit harsh. Sorry.

vesuvia · 24/02/2018 16:10

OP wrote - "I don’t like the term “peak trans” ... I think your term should be peak TRA."

I think a problem with changing "peak trans" to "peak TRA" or "peak trans rights activist" is that, to the general public, they are the same thing.

One of the reasons why we are in a fight to the death between gender-critical feminism and the transgenderism ideology of extremist transactivists is because most people have let their tolerance of transsexuality blind them to the misogyny of transgenderism. Therefore, most people think that the most vocal transactivists who are spreading their misogyny into the law, the NHS, schools and other aspects of society, are helping sex dysmorphic transsexual people (which is not the case).

Datun · 24/02/2018 16:21

Amoregentlemanlikemanner

That's the problem. People think it's happening elsewhere. Online. Or in big cities only.

And for a while that's how it did feel.

Did you read my initial post on here, near the top, about peak trans? That has a few examples, which are far from rare.

At the moment, in the last few weeks, we have had threads from academics who are fearful of losing their jobs over this issue, threads from lesbians who are relentlessly persecuted for transphobia if they don't consider men as partners, threads from women whose children have come home crying thinking they must be the opposite sex, threads from parents of girl guides who have learnt they won't be told if their daughter is sharing a tent with a boy, threads about swim UK who say a man can shower naked with the women.

A trans pressure group has called the police on a teacher in the last few days because they misgendered a child.

And a thread from women who are married to trans-women with AGP, which makes for horrendous and heartbreaking reading.

The last six months has seen these incidents absolutely rocket.

The trans-activism that has gone on under the radar for the last 10 years, is now reaping rewards.

I completely understand why you think this is happening elsewhere. It really isn't. I guarantee it will be happening in your child's school. If not today, very soon.

Amoregentlemanlikemanner · 24/02/2018 16:21

Hi terf, it is very interesting talking with you.
I am really struggling with how you feel about my trans friend and of course she isn’t here to reply and I can’t really speak on her behalf so I am going to park that for the minute.

However, on to your next post!

” it's not necessarily about whether we have been assaulted or might be assaulted”

Yes I see that

“.It'sut how much budging over we already do and are expected to keep doing. It's about how women are socialized to put men first and be nice.”

Yes

“Ever been mansplained at?”
Oh yes. Oh yes very much so.

“ Manspreaded?”
Yes

“Ever strongly disagreed with a man but been too intimidated to say anything?”

Rarely, but I am very aware that there is a social price to pay when I do voice the disagreement.
Maybe more often I am just ignored.

“ Ever been told to smile love or cheer up?”

Yes and I hate it.

“ Have you found yourself subconsciously putting the needs of the men in your life above your own? “

No but others complain that I fail to do so and I have had my husband move into my area of professional expertise and colonise it almost effortlessly.

“Do you have to walk round the men in the street because they won't move?”

I try not to but it probably happens. I comment if a man pushes ahead, etc. At work I deal with businesses who have interests in Saudi Arabia sometimes.

“Have you ever politely thanked that creepy dude for his compliment on your appearance?”

I learnt some good responses but I know exactly what you mean.

“I certainly have, and I'm sick of it. I'm not here to pamper the men in my life and they can fuck off if they dont like it. I'm definitely not willing to pamper the man that I don't know in the women's toilets. He can fuck off too. And it's this attitude from these men, the expectation that women that they don't even know will shove their feelings down their throat that makes me dislike them so much.”

Ok here comes the first world thing. Not exactly a problem, more a feeling of having changed.
I have read a shitload of story books, done a degree that basically just involved reading more stories, read stories for leisure, have a husband who has read even more stories than me, etc, etc.
Somehow, over the past decade I have realised that most of these stories are about what it feels like to be a man.and usually about how it feels to be a man dealing with violent urges or attempts to gain power.
I realised I was losing interest in figuring out what this must feel like for men.
The feeling got stronger until I realised I was done. That I didn’t want to go and see Othello because I’m done reading those stories and caring about these men and their feelings whilst ignoring the victims.
Then my husband organised a group night out involving dinner out followed by a trip to see AClockwork Orange and I found I was able to explain very simply to the group at the restaurant that I was going home because I don’t want to watch the rape scene because I am bored of watching rape scenes where the woman is just a prop and your reaction is just to the man.
It was a nice feeling. Calm, not angry.
Then I went to a festival event with a man and his feedback afterwards was that the poetry lost him because it was just about pregnancy and stuff.
And I replied calmly that I understood exactly his problem because I had had 40 years of having to adopt the viewpoint of men and how they feel about their aggression,and had decided not to bother doing that any more.
And he stared but again it didn’t feel angry, just that my sympathies have moved elsewhere.
I feel like I’ve kind of removed “manfeeling” spectacles I had been trained to wear.

Sorry! Long.

OP posts:
Amoregentlemanlikemanner · 24/02/2018 16:27

“That was me. It was a bit harsh. Sorry.”

It’s all good :)

OP posts:
Amoregentlemanlikemanner · 24/02/2018 16:31

Vesuvius, I take your point.
I think that others on the thread take a different view to you.

OP posts:
vesuvia · 24/02/2018 16:35

When talking about the latest jaw-droppingly shocking claim or action by extremist transactivists, I think there may be some merit in using the term "peak MRE" (short for "men's rights extremism") instead of "peak trans", because the excesses of transgenderism do merge into men's rights extremism.

Perhaps it may prompt some people to at least ask themselves "what has men's rights extremism got to do with transsexual people?". Some people may start to dig deeper, and they may begin to see the harm to women and girls that is likely to occur due to self-identification of gender identity by male people.

Datun · 24/02/2018 16:43

I feel like I’ve kind of removed “manfeeling” spectacles I had been trained to wear.

I totally get that.

And once the goggles come off, there's no getting them back on.

DH has been listening to me over the last few years.

The other day he said, is it just me, or are there far more sexist things going on, on TV? Obviously, his own goggles were starting to drop.

Which I said. He replied, are you sure? I think there is just more stuff. But I could tell he wasn't even convincing himself.

Its the same with trans. Once you see how insidious it is, how pervasive, how powerful. And how, as an ideology, it reinforces gender. You suddenly can't stop seeing it.

Amoregentlemanlikemanner · 24/02/2018 16:45

I will read it now datum (it wasn’t you, after all, who put the face-slap beginning in).

Ok, you put a powerful case.

What is the best source for verified evidence? I appreciate it is not reasonable to expect mumsnet to do that job.

OP posts:
Amoregentlemanlikemanner · 24/02/2018 16:49

Ok so I may step away shortly as there is stuff to digest here but thank you Datum and Terfinator it is cool to talk with you both.

OP posts:
PositivelyPERF · 24/02/2018 16:51

Good luck Amoregentlemanlikemanner. By the time you’ve finished reading all that, you can meet us up here on the peak. I’ll have a hot chocolate waiting for you, or possibly a stiff drink. 🥃