I don’t like the term “peak trans”

[Amoregentlemanlikemanner]

I mean I get it. But I think your term should be peak TRA.

“Peak- “ is, as I understand it, a reference to the term “ peak oil” with all the connotations of the amount of oil reducing down to nothing.

Which is not, I hope, the way anyone feels about trans people.

Just my take on things

bluescreen, did you mean to refer to me as "he"? I am a woman.

hi Datun thanks for posting.

I don't exactly object, it's more that I felt very uneasy when I saw it, that unease stayed with me. I thought about my (one!) trans friend and how she would feel and (perhaps more importantly) how her teenage daughter would feel.

Then I thought about why I was uneasy and quickly realised it was because my only other exposure to peakxxx was the original term: peak oil - many a meeting I've sat in on that topic.

Unlike bluescreen, I hadn't got very familiar with terms like peak beard, etc. so I think the term still had its original connotations for me - clearly it doesn't for many people.

I could be in a very small minority I may not. I don't know.

I did post about my trans friend and her family a while back and people replied saying "well, she sounds like she is an old-fashioned transexual so she is ok" but I don't think she uses the term transexual of herself iyswim.

I personally couldn't sign up to anything where I couldn't look my friend in the eye - something where I had to say "you are a man!" to her. For me that would be the wrong side of a line.

"Amoregentlemanlikemanner

Is it the term peak trans that you object to? Or the concept?

Would trans-saturation work, for instance.

Or trans-overload.

Or if it has the word trans in it, is that the problem?"

Terfinater

I don't agree with your view but I get that you are being honest about it.

sorry if I came across as patronising - it wasn't the intention.

Question to you: are you at the point where you actually challenge "ordinary" trans women (not campaigner, just the quiet majority) and tell them that you are no longer prepared to call them a woman?

"ordinary people felt like they were being accused of being Nazis... not a good campaigning idea in retrospect"

How is your approach to stop MRAs using the term "feminazi" going?

"people were meant to reassure you that Oh No,they don't feel that way about trans people, it's the ideology that's the problem"

• well, yes, I had always assumed that that would be the consensus tbh-

I have never spoken to anyone who just comes out and says they have a problem with trans women per se before.

I have no idea what your post means beyond.

bluescreen, did you mean to refer to me as "he"? I am a woman

I apologise. I wasn't paying proper attention.

"are you at the point where you actually challenge "ordinary" trans women (not campaigner, just the quiet majority) and tell them that you are no longer prepared to call them a woman?"

Not addressed to me but I'll answer anyway: I would never proactively seek out someone to tell them a hurtful truth.

If there was literally no intersection between that person and me, and our rights, there would be no necessity for the subject to arise.

But if that person had expectations of me treating them as if we were the same sex, in a scenario where it is critical for me to exclude them because they are male, then yes, that forces the truth.

I can't and won't lie. Transwomen are men, even the lovely ones, and I will always be the opposite sex to them.

thanks bluescreen,

I thought it must be a mistake as the rest of your post was straight-to-the-point and not barbed or anything.

I do think you are right in that I have "missed out" on the whole "peak beard etc etc etc etc " thing. Don't really do social media other than mumsnet, etc.

all good.

"But if that person had expectations of me treating them as if we were the same sex, in a scenario where it is critical for me to exclude them because they are male, then yes, that forces the truth."

appreciate that post, it's quite hard reading for me but I get that it's honest and it is major food for thought....

I think I would be willing to offend a person who looked like a man in terms of musculature/beard/clothing if they wanted to enter a private space eg where very young teens were getting changed and say "no I'm sorry, this upsets you I know but it would be intimidating for them".

but I would never want my own friend not to be able to use the ladlies. I think that, for me, if you are prepared to chop off your penis and balls, I'm prepared to accept you.

but I don't know and now I'm going to spend the whole weekend wondering :)

"but I would never want my own friend not to be able to use the ladlies. I think that, for me, if you are prepared to chop off your penis and balls, I'm prepared to accept you."

Genital surgery doesn't automatically make a man look anything like a women. Women and girls may still feel uncomfortable and threatened by them. Why should women and girls be force to feel that way in a public toilet? Why do you think your friend feelings count more than that on any women or girl?

People say that sort of thing a lot. My friend is more important than anyone else.
You really shouldn't be surprised that women disagree that they should be put at risk so your friend is not inconvenienced in any way.

Peak is more along the lines of something that was all good and well has spiralled out of control and he be is sick of it. I'm peak gin for example.

You need to think beyond the most benign scenario, Amoregentlemanlikemanner

Think:
Should a woman about to take her knickers off and have a nurse insert a speculum into her vagina be forced to pretend her male nurse is female?

Should a woman or girl have the right to dignity, or is her safety sufficient? Do we think privacy is important? Consent?

If a lone woman is in a pool changing room with 3 large males, her first concern will be safety. But if she is in the company of other women and one slight male, her major concern may be privacy and dignity, not fear. If we force women to be naked in the presence of male people who believe themselves to be women, we are forcing women to
A. Pretend that they don't really want sex (body) segregation for circumstances involving their naked bodies - this is a blatant lie
B. Pretend that they have some sort of lady-identity-in-common with this particular male person; also an enforced lie.

No one should advocate for subjugating women this way.

Question to you: are you at the point where you actually challenge "ordinary" trans women (not campaigner, just the quiet majority) and tell them that you are no longer prepared to call them a woman?

The answer is yes and no.

I have a hobby and over the years i have got to know a man in that group.He's nice, gentle, and non threatening.I felt completely comfortable with him.I used to really like him. Recently he has anounced he's transgender.

This man has now started to dress in what i can only describe as little girls clothes.He stands with his feet pointing together and clutches his hands together behind his back in an almost courtsey. He wears his hair in pigtails and twirls them when he's talking to you and has adopted a coy, seductive child like persona. It's very disturbing and there is a certain glee in his eyes when he is doing this that is disturbing. It's very sexual.

I used to talk to him, but don't anymore, although I do politely acknowledge him. If he was to approach me and try to gaslight me into saying he was a woman, yes, I would tell him that he's not. But then again I'm angry at him using me as a prop in his fantasy, angry at his impersonation of a woman and I'm angry that I was so wrong about him.
He won't ever get away with behaving like that with me ever again, and I will loudly object if he comes in my bathroom, and loudly object to any more flirtatious little girl act. BUT I also feel safe at my hobby and my husband is there and he feels the same.

The No part is to the two aggressive looking strange men in the women's bathrooms last week. I compare it to the following scenario.A while ago I was walking my dog alone in a very secluded area. A man approached me and tried to befriend my very large suspicious dog. I was immediately uncomfortable. It became quite clear that he was severely mentally unwell when he started to tell me that God had directed him here, because there were demons in this place masquerading as humans. I nodded along and politely made my excuses to continue my walk.

He followed me and continued to try to befriend my dog. My dog was spooked and on full alert. The man told me that he had recently been in prison, but he couldn't remember why, as he was prone to violent blackouts. I was very very frightened, but also realised that this man was enjoying frightening me, so I played along. In a public place, or different circumstances i would have told him to fuck off.

I don't think many women really think these men are women, Most people play along out of fear. So, whether I would say it or not depends on it it was safe to do so.

I personally couldn't sign up to anything where I couldn't look my friend in the eye - something where I had to say "you are a man!" to her. For me that would be the wrong side of a line.

I don't think anyone on here would actually do that. Unless, as barracker said, it was necessary.

Like..if I had gone to the GP for a smear and I had requested a woman. And I was sent your friend. I would say, in that situation, that I had requested a woman and your friend was not a woman, as they are male.

But just in general conversation or something? I can't think of a time when I would do that, as I am a nice person. I reckon a few blokes would have no issue doing it though. This is part of the problem, women are abused none stop by the trans lobby, threatened with murder and rape for refusing to believe that male people are female, whilst men are actually transphobic a fair bit, and nothing is said.

I have absolutely no issue with transsexual people. Its transactivists, and many 'transgender' people, many 'transbians', and tbh the entire ideology that I have an issue with. Oh, and being expected to lie in general that men are women.

just to say I have to go (work- home) but appreciate how much food for thought there is in those posts and I will read them with care.
appreciate them, have a good weekend.

I tell a lie. If your friend was anything like StephOnKnee, then in normal conversation I would absolutely tell them that they are not a woman (or a 6 year old girl)

Came to me after posting

I am assuming your friend is not a trans age autogynephile though.

It is a truth that ought to be universally acknowledged that people who refuse to take no for an answer are not safe to be around.

I'm really tired of people expecting other women as a group to distort reality and agree to have our boundaries ignored so as to avoid hurting the feelings of their trans friends/family members. If you personally want to go out of your way to protect the feelings of your friends, that's up to you, but imposing that expectation on other women is unacceptable. If that expectation is floated on a feminist board then vigorous objection should be anticipated.

Perhaps women have always been in closer contact with reality than men: it would seem to be the just recompense for being deprived of idealism. Germaine Greer
Read more at: www.brainyquote.com/quotes/germaine_greer_165379

I've come back to be pedantic about language - which was the original point, was it not?

Peak Oil: Oil is a finite natural resource. It has been used very heavily for a long time. Extraction techniques have improved, allowing annual usage to increase but bringing us rapidly closer to using it all up. Before this happens, extraction will become less economical, so decline quite fast. 'Peak Oil' refers to that point at which our use of oil peaks, before inevitably declining, because it is running out and uneconomical to extract. (In order to maintain the same level of energy use, other sources must increase).

In Peak Oil, oil supply does not decline because anybody wants it to, it declines because it's a finite non-renewable resource.

I don't see how that can form any sort of analogy for 'trans' whether that means people or ideology.

OP could you explain please?

I agree Angrykittens. I don't believe they expect men to play along in the same way.

Hi Lottie,

For me personally, it’s all in my reply to Datum above.14.20. Not sure I can add to that.

Also, the popular response to 'peak oil' was to think about diversification of energy sources. Local 'transition' groups (ooh, trans groups eh!) talked a lot about community-scale responses, reduction in energy use, community-owned generation.

Sooo, the shift was from a fairly monolithic traditional fossil fuel-based energy supply, to a diverse one, with a small but very engaged network of people proposing this be created and owned by determined individuals and self-identifying local groups.

Now that starts to sound analogous to gender. A move from a traditional, simple status quo to a diverse, fragmented, fluid future, driven by a minority of passionately engaged people, working together in 'transition groups'.

But, it's all moving in the wrong direction for this supposed 'peak oil as peak trans' analogy. Rather, it would appear to demonstrate a 'peak oil as peak hetero-normative paradigm' analogy.

Which doesn't work either. Again, because oil is a finite non-renewable resource, declining naturally and inevitably because we've nearly used it all up. It is not being willed out of existence. Whereas ideas about gender are limited only by the number of people willing to adopt them.