My elderly parents peak transed today

[MyBeloved]

I was having a lively debate with my parents (both in their 80s and incredibly with it and intelligent) and the subject of womens only safe spaces came up. I decided to tell them about the proposed issues involving TIMs.

And they peak transed.

So begins the spread of this information among their friends, and the ripples will spread.

What is mentally being a woman? The brain is an organ of cognition, not sex.

Would you do that just so you could perv in the changing rooms? Nah.

But that's the problem Phoenix.

There is absolutely no way of telling. And women should not be in the position of having to assess men, on the basis of whether or not they think they are harmful.

Neither should they be expected to get changed next to men who aren't harmful. As many people have pointed out, our father in laws, son's friends, are perfectly lovely. But we don't want to get our kit off in front of them.

A third space is the only practical solution.

notangelinajolie

My 19 year old son 'peaked' a few weeks ago. He'd been quite happily calling me a Terf and storming out of the room declaring "I do not wish to engage with bigots" previously. His central argument was that self ID was such an obvious nonsense that no one would be advocating and so I'd obviously bought into some radfem propaganda.

He was so certain that it was a nonsense that he didn't even bother to research it (and I think this is probably much of the problem - there are people on this thread saying "Anything other than self ID is cruel to transsexuals." and "Of course I wouldn't advocate any man being able to walk into women's changing rooms" without realising that the latter will be a direct consequence of the former because they haven't researched it at all and are using common sense...).

He was using the "this is the same argument that your parents generation used against homosexuality in the 80s" argument and similar.

So I told him to google 'cotton ceiling' and 'Truscum'. And he listened.

He peaked.

He gets that it's not about 'old skool transsexuals' and that it's about an aggressive MRA campaign dressed up as Trans rights when the only people who will benefit from it are aggressive, violent, misogynists.

I'm fine with forming a strategic alliance with women, but to work it has to be on equal terms. Which Miranda, Pigeon etc would presumably be fine with.

Someone who demands cosseting is demonstrating the fact that an alliance is not what they're after.

With trans women, I mean.

See, Phoenix? Your position is actually pretty much identical to that of half the people on these threads. The ones you said sounded like they were 'just spreading hatred', back on page 1.

None of us want to spread hatred.

Should we make transwomen use men's changing rooms and let them get raped instead of us? Is that ok?

I don't know if the sort of men who would rape a TW are the same as the sort who would rape a woman. I doubt it though. I suspect that the sort who would rape TW are the aggressive, bully boy ' teach them a lesson for not being man enough' sort, whereas the ones raping women are the ones who hate women. Still rooted in a misogyny, but for different reasons.

But the important point is that, if self ID gets passed and there is no requirement on any man to commit to, or even present as, a woman for any length of time, or even consistently, then those men will just be able to follow the TW into the women's changing rooms anyway.

All it means is that the men who pose a risk to TIMs and women will be allowed in women's changing rooms.

It won't make the TIMs any safer, it will just make women less safe.

Phoenix, you said up thread that you haven't researched any of this.

There is a thread on the Pink News website talking about transmen on Grindr. It developed into a general trans debate. The majority of the gay men on there are saying exactly the same thing that women are saying on here - their rights are being eradicated; their position as 'gay' men, especially less 'manly' gay men, is being threatened with the pressure to identify as trans instead...

Google 'cotton ceiling' and read about the awful impact this is having on young lesbians as they are coerced into having sex with TIMs who say they are lesbians. When these women say they "but I'm a lesbian, I don't do dick" they are told this is a lady dick, attached to a lady, and not to be so transphobic...

Google Truscum and find out the impact of this upon the genuine transsexuals that you refer to. You, like many at the start, believe that this will make life better, easier, for them. But this movement is as damaging for them as it is for anyone. that's because the current TR movement states that anyone who is gender dysphoric, or believes that gender dysphoria to be a requirement of 'Trans' is transphobic.

Yes, that's right - trans people, the ones who have actually transitioned, the ones who accept that they are not women, but find that their mental anguish is alleviated by being able to present as women, are being labelled as transphobic/Truscum.

These are not the people the current movement is seeking to support.

That's all well and good phoenixtherabbit but how will you tell the difference? You can't tell from outward appearance unless you're saying women = appearance and how well someone passes is the criteria for whether they can use female spaces.

Regarding those rights do you think trans women don't have? Those who have a GRC are legally women. They are not being denied any rights.

Unfortunately, those who shout loudest appear to be influencing policy. Look at the vitriol heaped on Transgender Trend's information pack for schools - if half the people who are demanding schools shred it have read it, I'll eat my hat. Any kind of departure from instant affirmation is regarded by them as bigoted, but when you think of the gender non confirming children you knew (maybe including yourself) who grew up and are now happy in their bodies, whether straight or gay, is it worth the risk that we just agree to children making drastic bodily changes instead of letting them work though their feelings?

This topic came up at work recently, it's quite a diverse company, so I was ready to have to walk away when the whole "but they are women" thing came up.

I was so heartened when everyone disagreed, and that women should still have their rights protected but also trans identified people must be protected too with a third space. As that harms no one and gives them their 'rights' that they mistakenly think they don't already have.

I'm convinced, given my own experiences, that it is only really a very small insignificant (in terms of numbers) minority who actually go along the with the lie to be polite because no one genuinely believes a human can change sex but the problem is they, like most bullies and people who know they are wrong, shout the loudest.

People are starting to shout back, and it's a good thing for everyone.

My whole family have peak transed. My Dsis is a fervent supporter of Labour, but issue is enough for her not to vote for them in the next general election.

I am pretty certain that transwoman have been using women's toilets for years without any problems but what is worrying me (I can't speak for everyone) is that with self-Id they don't need to make the effort to transition or even to 'pass'. It isn't transwoman who will go into the toilets and attack people, it's predatory men. Men who have no 'inner sense' of being a woman, men who are in the ladies with the sole purpose of harming women and they will use the "oh but I'm a self identifying transwoman' argument to justify their presence in an all female environment. Then there are those with AGP who get off from being in a woman's space. We have a law at the moment that keeps these people out. It isn't perfect but the proposals for self id are dangerous. And actually they are not just dangerous to women but trans women too. We need a third space. It isn't women who are going to harm trans people if they go into the toilet if their sex, it's men. So why should women make sacrifices of their space?

You don't make laws for the majority of law-abiding people, Phoenix: you make them for the minority of criminal people on the basis of the risk they pose. If you have yet to grasp this very basic fact about the justice system, I suggest you have more foundational work to do on your understanding of society than jumping straight into discussion of legislation to self-ID your legal gender.

why are you all asking me how I would know?

I don't know. i'm not a psychologist but I imagine if anyone could work it out it would be them.

Deluded? That's nice. Care to explain why or do you just want to make a nasty comment?

this is the thing about these threads - if you don't agree you're thick

But phoenix, we're not trying to pile on, we're trying to explain that the point of self ID is that it removes what trans activists call medical gatekeeping - so the psychologist wouldn't be consulted. Their diagnosis would be irrelevant.

I agree that women should have rights obviously but trans people are women and for the most part genuinely feel that way and will transition completely

Horse shit.

You are talking about transsexuals there, not trans'genders'. Two very differewnt groups of people.

I think that is where the disconnect is coming from.

Obviously most people women are kind and tolerant, so when they think of someone like me (mental disorder, intense therapy and some pretty radical 'self-mutilation' in order to feel comfortable in my own body) they naturally say 'oh what's the harm, sure Tru, we don't mind calling you whatever you want and helping you'.

Unfortunately that has been high-jacked by the completely different and new umbrella term of 'transgenders' which by it's own definition includes men who just like pretending to be a woman for sexual kicks and have no intention of parting from their precious penis, which they love.

That's my take on it anyway. Women don't want to be seen as someone who would intentionally cause emotional pain to someone like me (though I personally don't think my mental health is the responsibility of anyone else) and so they are bending over backwards trying to be accommodating to men that have far more nefarious motives than 'Truscum' transsexuals.

That is, until they realise the truth, and that they are being forced to participate in a delusion that the very men that are screaming 'bigot' at them don't even believe themselves.

When people realise their own kindness is being used against them as a way of stripping away women's and children's safety and rights, that is 'peak trans' and anyone helping that process along should be damn proud of themselves.

I don't know. i'm not a psychologist but I imagine if anyone could work it out it would be them.

Exactly.

And that's how GRCs used to work. How they've worked up until now and have afforded transsexuals with GRCs the rights that enable them to access women's facilities and be treated courteously by women who are happy to facilitate their lives 'as women' because it 'makes no difference to us'.

The whole point of self ID is that there will be no psychologists making a judgement on the voracity of these men's claims. There will be no safeguarding to protect the vulernable. There will be no gatekeeping to ensure that men with ulterior motives are kept out.

That is the whole point of it.

The thing is, I do think it's very disingenuous for people to throw terms like "naive" and "deluded" around. It's hardly the way to win friends and influence people.

I think some of the frustration comes from the fact that so many people start where you are, saying the same things you are. Almost word for word and then slowly the penny drops.

This is not about denying rights already enjoyed to transsexuals. This is about protecting people from others who might seek to do them harm.

No one is saying 'all transsexuals are a danger to women' - although undoubtedly some are, as is the nature of people!

What we are saying is that an unintended consequence of saying that any man can say he is a woman, whether he has gender dysphoria or not, is that some men; those who seek to do women harm, will be able to take advantage of those laws in order to do so. And this is not being considered because, according to the TRAs, anyone who says they are a woman is entitled to do so, no questions asked.

jesus Christ - yes I have said that there should be some way of "knowing"

are you purposely not realising that I am agreeing with SOME of what is said on here?

I agree that womens safe spaces should not be taken away. I agree that there should be some kind of I don't know, phsocological intervention to see who seriously wants to go through with it and who is trying it on.

for fucks sake I am agreeing with half of what is being said on here, but I don't agree with stopping real transwomen who genuinely WANT to be a woman being made to use male changing rooms etc. You're putting them at risk by doing that. As someone else said, yes there should be a third space.

I also don't agree with saying all transwomen are men. They're not. Some are, and all were, yes.

I also don't like the term 'peak transed' reminds me too much of racism and segregation and such like. I'm not going to agree with you for the sake of it, it's ok to have differing opinions and its okay to be uncomfortable with certain things.

there are a lot of phrases that some people find totally acceptable but make others uncomfortable

I agree that womens safe spaces should not be taken away. I agree that there should be some kind of I don't know, phsocological intervention to see who seriously wants to go through with it and who is trying it on.

for fucks sake I am agreeing with half of what is being said on here, but I don't agree with stopping real transwomen who genuinely WANT to be a woman being made to use male changing rooms etc. You're putting them at risk by doing that. As someone else said, yes there should be a third space.

phoenix, what you're describing here is the status quo. Two years living as a woman and a diagnosis of dysphoria to get a GNC. it's not perfect. It's still a damn sight better than self-ID

enjoyed by/afforded to

But Phoenix what you are suggesting should happen is what is already happening!

The plan is to change it.

A lot of people agree with a third space.

But that's not what the TRAs want. They want any man who wants to access women's spaces for any reason to be allowed to do so with impunity.

I also don't agree with saying all transwomen are men. They're not. Some are, and all were, yes

I have no penis. But I am very aware that I am a biological male. I fully b believe that as far as crime statistics, sports and women's spaces like rape and domestic abuse centres go that I should be counted as a biological male. Not that I'd have any desire to intrude on any of those anyway, but it seems a lot of men suddenly do.

I agree that womens safe spaces should not be taken away. I agree that there should be some kind of I don't know, phycological intervention to see who seriously wants to go through with it and who is trying it on

'Peak-transing' is the realisation that this safeguard is currently being stripped away, piece by piece.

Women were previously generally ok with someone like me (grc, would be considerate of who was in there and only used unisex changing rooms etc.) using a women's bathroom quickly. It was called 'the honour system'.

That is being destroyed now, and I cannot blame women for no longer feeling comfortable, and especially won't when self- ID comes in. How can they know that I am no longer 'intact'? How can they know that I haven't just popped a dress on and intend to rape them? Hell, my brother could just walk in as he is (six footer, large build, full beard) and they would be called a bigot for saying 'Ermm...'

More importantly, when this rule comes through, they won't even have the very slight power of being able to complain and ask for any man being a nuisance (or far worse) to be removed from their safe space.

It's wrong and it isn't even remotely comparable to racism to discuss exactly why it is all so wrong.

Read ian huntley wants to be a woman so he can live out sentence in female only prison-classic example here

I don't agree with stopping real transwomen who genuinely WANT to be a woman being made to use male changing rooms etc. You're putting them at risk by doing that

Women are not putting these people at risk. It's men! It's male violence they're worried about, they need to take it up with men. Men need to be forced into being more inclusive of men in lipstick. Men need to be re-educated to stop them defaulting to aggression.

The solution is not turn women's space into a free for all.