Can you be a feminist and be completely accepting of transgender individuals?

[MagicSweets]

It seems to be a thing that the majority of feminists on here are against transgender people. I'm just curious if you can be a feminist and completely accept transgender individuals.

When you find trans women who're taking on the kind of unpaid caring work that women are expected to (childcare, eldercare, etc) then you let us know, OP! I've yet to see any.

However, I have recently come across a lovely man, who actually does just that and asked a shop if he was allowed to use the women's toilet (it's a single toilet) and they said yes and he was genuinely pleased.

Regardless of how lovely you found him, he should not have been in the womens loo as he is a man and womens loos are for women. Why did he feel the need to ask to go to the womens? Bloody ridiculous, both that he asked, and that they allowed him.

I don't have much issue with unisex loos in contained single areas, but if there are (presumably..if one is for women) two, one for each sex, there is no reason at all why he would need to use the womens. The usual 'men may attack me' (ignoring that this is exactly why many women have an ssue with men being in their loos..) doesn't even work here if it was a single loo anyway. So what reason is left here? Unless I am missing something

Planting a hidden camera?

I feel like Mumsnet thinks all transgender (I've actually seen people say this) - transgender females are men wanting to hurt real women and transgender males are women who realise that men are seen as superior in the world and want that.

Bullcrap. No you haven't. Because nobody on here says such things.

You heard rumours that FWR was a cesspit of evil TERFs genociding saintly trans a post at a time and you thought you'd come along and sanctimoniously point out the error of our ways.

Planting a hidden camera?

I think I just threw up in my mouth a bit.

lang

Be interesting to see the link to 'all transgender women are...'

It seems to be the one place on the internet that transphobic radfems have colonised (a few years ago mumsnet was nowhere near this prejudiced

Actually what you will find is that most of us supported transsexuals and when TRAs decided to change the game and call feminist terfs for discussing "female biology" or periods etc and started discussing their female penises we mostly realised "transgenderism" had jumped the shark and could fuck right off.

I still support transexuals. "transgender" doesn't mean anything.

Its not about being a feminist its about being a woman (I am a feminist but this isn't some kind of niche issue for politically aware people)

Can I completely accept transgender individuals. No I can accept them as individuals but not completely as that would mean I agree with the ideology that come with trans people.

I am a woman, that is a biological fact. The gender thing is bullshit and should just be thrown in the bin (i'm sick of hearing about it). Biology and our bodies have been used against us. In a large part of the world women still live a very restricted existence because of their biology/ body.
If we allow men to claim to be women but without the biological traits of women we will end up with a super class of "women" (men) and we will be put back in a box while men take over. They are already trying to do it. People being told not to say "pregnant woman" in case it upsets men - ffs!
this is exactly what 70s feminists predicted would happen.

Yeah, its been interesting to watch MN slowly turn. Not that long ago gender critical voices were fairly rare. Then one by one people realised quite the extent this whole thing has gone to. Its not about transsexuals, like many believe it is. And I feel confident in stating that once the general public know exactly what is going on (recent press is helping with this, finally) the huge majority will be against it. So many people I know were blindly accepting and thought I was being a nasty bigot (which they could not understand at all after a lifetime of championing minorities) but once I showed them whats really going on, and whats actually being asked for, and explained the 'self-ID' thing..they turned full 'terf'. Though terf just seems to mean anyone who does not agree 100% with everything transactivists say. Its almost a ter of endearment to me now. Despite the violence/death threats that tend to come along with it.

I could maybe understand the 'terfs colonizing MN' argument if it had all came fom nowhere, but its been a slow and steady change in opinions. This is kind of why threads like this (and the 'sick of all the transphobia' threads) are important. Every trans thread, another poster/lurker, or more than one, wakes up to whats going on.

Seriously if I don't believe in gender so I am effectively "abinary" to use a term down with the kids how the fuck could I believe anyone could be transgender?

I believe there are individuals who have always hated their bodies and believed they should have been born women. Why they feel that way I have no idea. I'm happy to accept them. I will never however accept someone can have a "female penis" . If you have a beard and a dick and you really want to keep them and look like a man and tell me that you're the wrong gender well you can fuck the fuck off.

What if they were trans as a child? Had puberty blockers and had hormone treatment. Have they still been socialised as a boy?

What about trans men. Do they have the same problems women do? I don't think they do. If they've had testosterone and are now huge and muscley, are they likely to be sexually assaulted like the women in today are (even though, they are still women in your eyes right?) it's confusing.

While uncomfortable you need to think honestly about why your male presenting lovely trans friend asked to use the women's single cubicle, and was happy and pleased that he could.

He didn't need to. There were clearly no safety concerns. He doesn't dress or present in a way that he would feel uncomfortable in a men's space or risk being badly treated. So the top layer is it validated his self chosen identity as being special and an exception to the usual rules of using toilets in public. Dig down into that - the pleasure is in overcoming a boundary around a woman's space. Being a special exemption. Getting into a forbidden female place where men aren't usually allowed. Which shows the not too lovely underlying layer that the buzz and pleasure was probably sexual, and he was getting off on it.

I am either non-binary, a-gender or genderqueer, fit all three. Maybe some of the other 87879 genders too

It's not confusing at all. There have been multiple cases of trans men being sexually assaulted. Oddly enough their telling the attacker that they identified as men didn't seem to make much of a difference.

What if they were trans as a child? Had puberty blockers and had hormone treatment. Have they still been socialised as a boy?

Then that is child abuse. No sane adult would give chemicals that will effectively castrate their child before they are even of an age where they would be considered responsible enough to vote.

hat about trans men. Do they have the same problems women do? I don't think they do. If they've had testosterone and are now huge and muscley, are they likely to be sexually assaulted like the women in today are (even though, they are still women in your eyes right?) it's confusing

What is confusing is some peoples basic lack of any sort of knowledge of biology.

You can pump a woman full of hormones and she still will not be able to compete with a man re: muscles, skeletal structure.

This is my point. He's now being described as sexually getting off on it. FYI, he's not my friend. Hence he's a 'he' to me? He looked like a 'man' but I suppose if I knew him, he'd rather be called her.

@AngryAttackKittens - I don't know what those women looked like. However, if a man, who was trans, looked like a man, was walking down a street alone, are you telling me they are just as much likely to be attacked as a biological woman?

Well, I guess the trans man is also a biological woman. But a woman who isn't trans I mean.

There is more than one trans identified male who gets his daily gender affirmation by asking women clerks in shops if he can use the ladies.
They like to talk about it on reddit, and the public displays they put on when they are refused.

I just already feel like people on here think trans men are felt sorry for and need protecting. Yet trans woman are awful and rape.

I use the gents in those single cubicles if the ladies one is full

And i have seen a very small queue outside the ladies when the gents was empty

I wouldn't ask anyone if i could use it

This is my point. He's now being described as sexually getting off on it.

What reason do you have for him asking to use the womens loos? As a male person? In a single unit also, so as I say, none of the usual 'I may get attacked' stuff. What can you think of?

Yet trans woman are awful and rape

Why do you keep saying this

I suppose its a change from all

Some trans women have raped, loads of them haven't

He is not being described as getting off on it. I asked you to think honestly about why a male presenting TIM would be happy to be allowed to use the women's loos in those circumstances. If you think it through - and are aware of autogynephilia - it's an uncomfortable but very likely thing to consider. And it does have to be considered if you're advocating for self ID. women and girls and their spaces should not have to be props in other people's fantasies.

Trans men when seen outside of carefully staged pictures are usually easily recognised as women as transwomen are easily recognised as men, humans have evolved to pick up very easily and quickly on secondary sex characteristics. Look at videos of poor little Jazz Jennings who has been on hormones, never had a puberty and has been socialised as a transgirl. Even Jazz doesn't easily pass when you see them talking and moving.

What if they were trans as a child? Had puberty blockers and had hormone treatment. Have they still been socialised as a boy?

I have sympathy for them as they were abused but they still aren't women.

Also meant to say agender not abinary!