Can you be a feminist and be completely accepting of transgender individuals?

[MagicSweets]

It seems to be a thing that the majority of feminists on here are against transgender people. I'm just curious if you can be a feminist and completely accept transgender individuals.

If you're talking about nice - rape threats and doxxing isn't nice. Why don't you ask the TRAs to be nice ?

'accepting' means 'tolerance', not 'capitulating'.

No, women will not tolerate biological men invading womens spaces.
If TIMs want to fight for their own spaces and services we'll cheerfully support them.

I always had a soft spot for a bloke in mascara

Shame they mostly end up looking more Emily Howard than Adam Ant, which might explain why they didn't try it the first time round.

I always had a soft spot for a bloke in mascara

So did I. Still he same 2 kids later...

18centurybodies.wordpress.com/2013/06/05/male-make-up-in-eighteenth-century-england/

In the 18th century many men, known as fops or beaus wore make up, rouge, powdered wigs, high heels, silk etc. yet none appeared to decide they were women. Interestingly, there were stories of their aggressive heterosexuality.

Sound familiar?

*the

I always had a soft spot for a bloke in mascara

Eyeliner for me. I reckon a lot of guys really suit it and it looks quite..striking. I asked DH to put some on once in private, but he wouldn't. A few weeks later, he was dancing on a pool table in my dress, knee high boots, wig and face full of makeup for a mates birthday

That was not hot. At all.

Eyeliner and long hair for me, please. There are still multiple scenes where men do that whole thing without pretending to be women, and it's attractive in a way that the sort of weird 80s clown makeup that Alok Vaid-Menon for example does is not.

Mmmm. Happy sigh. Adam Ant. Those were the days.

Yes, but it only suits young men though, and yes to Adam Ant being gorgeous and full on male in his eyeliner - I think it was his dancing though that did it for me

I was looking at photos of Brian Eno yesterday with his floral blouses, long hair and lip gloss

I dunno, I've met some men in their 40s who still look great in the goth/glam looks. Once again though, they all know that they're men, and they're not doing the someone threw a bunch of melted crayons at your face and then dressed you in a 10 year old girls party outfit from 1985 look that Alok and friends do.

Like women, men need to adapt their look with age. Though it's probably harder to carry off make up as a man if you are carrying a little too much comfortable weight. And now I'm thinking of the David Walliams' mate, the guy in the babygrow in shooting stars.

Leading, goady question.

Also just out of curiosity, do trans men really look that feminine? All the photos I have seen, are of ones that look rather masculine, maybe just a little feminine but still like men to me. Many of them grow beards and put on muscle to some extent. Of course it may just be that the ones presented in photos are carefully chosen

The ones that make it on to mens health or are rolled out to scare women "Do you want this man in your toilets" are obviously pretty big and pass.

But seriously the majority you see on youtube, tumbler etc are clearly women. Women have higher percentage of body fat, average about 5 ft 3. Dressed in "men's" clothing. Basically no different to how a lot of lesbians have been dressing for years.

Also no massive adam's apple like our friend Riley.

@MagicSweets

Do you pretend that white transracial people are black? Should they take university scholarships from black people? Should they be allowed to take space in quotas for BME people? It would hurt their feelings to pretend they aren't black so I hope so.

This is StephOnKnee (geddit?)She is six years old. She has sex with an adult couple she calls mummy and daddy and has playdates with "cis"6 year old children. Would you be happy with her in your child's reception class?

The Canadian Government have thanked her officially for help campaigning for transwomen's rights.

This is a lovely "family" photo of them all.

Also I'm curious if you would be happy with transabled people using disabled parking?

Do you have a problem calling them 'she'? Even if they respect women's safe spaces and accept they are a transgender woman and not a biological woman? Would you be happy to call them 'she'?

And sigh, again, missing the point about clothes. I'm the worst - never worn make up in my life, will never see me in a skirt or dress, etc. I can't explain what transgender people feel (I'm not one) I was just trying to make sense in my head why most of them say "from a young age I have always liked dresses and pink" and how the little boys they were, were happy to do that and encouraged, but as they grew older they became self conscious over it and saw all their male classmates liking certain things and they didn't, I can only assume it must start with that, as let's be real, I have never seen a genuine transsexual male wearing a dress or female with short hair.

I don't think anyone on MN doesn't call those few transwomen who speak up "she". Do a search on Miranda Yardley. But yes, I do have a problem with calling Danielle Muscato she. Wanders around with male pattern baldness and a beard, argues his way into women's refuges, gets actual women kicked out and says we can suck his dick. Why the fuck should I be nice> he isn't a woman.

You didn't answer my questions though. Still waiting.

I was just trying to make sense in my head why most of them say "from a young age I have always liked dresses and pink" and how the little boys they were, were happy to do that and encouraged, but as they grew older they became self conscious over it and saw all their male classmates liking certain things and they didn't,

That's about rigid gender roles. Not sex. Masculinity particularly is a pretty toxic cage for some men.

I wish men would have the courage of all the feminist pioneers over the last 300 years and DO something about the horrible bullying nature of masculinity.

Have a look at the wonderful work Michael Conroy does with "A Call to Men" (you can follow him on Twitter too, he's a fabulous feminist ally)

A Call to Men

magic

Youve never seen a woman with short hair

Ive obviously misunderstood that

I was just trying to make sense in my head why most of them say "from a young age I have always liked dresses and pink"

Studies show a lot of them rewrite their own history in their minds to justify middle aged transition in response to a sexual fetish that began in late adolescence and gradually become an obsession during adult life.

See the Trans Widow thread here and many similar blogs for illustration.

Trans isn't one thing. It's many different things under one umbrella. So there is how to make sense of one of them - the one that explains 70-80% of adult transitioning men, to be precise.

"I was just trying to make sense in my head why most of them say "from a young age I have always liked dresses and pink" "

First point - do you believe the 'from a young age' claim? It's pretty common for people to rewrite history in their head to conform with their current narrative. For example, those who want to commit adultery tell others (and themselves) that their marriage has been in trouble for a long time. This is usually the first the spouse knows of it. It's a way of giving yourself permission two behave in a certain way.

Second - dresses and pink are nothing to do with being female. They are to do with gender, and the expectations placed upon us all. Pink is a nice colour, why shouldn't boys like it? Dresses can be very comfortable, especially in hot weather, why shouldn't boys wear them?

But, if a boy wants something pink or a dress, and the adults around him are adamant that pink/dresses are only for girls and not for boys, hand on heart can you say that a child won't hear that as a Chinese Whisper as 'you want pink/dress but they're for girls so you must be a girl'?

I read somewhere recently (here or Twitter) of a young girl asking her mum if girls didn't feel the cold as much as boys. When asked why, she pointed out that girls' clothes were skimpier than boys' clothes. Bless her, she was trying to make sense of what she observed. But, not having all the information available (clothes manufacturers are sexist pigs) she drew the wrong conclusion. Liking dresses/pink could be exactly the same, reinforced over and over again by gender stereotypes.