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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can you be a feminist and be completely accepting of transgender individuals?

248 replies

MagicSweets · 14/02/2018 17:30

It seems to be a thing that the majority of feminists on here are against transgender people. I'm just curious if you can be a feminist and completely accept transgender individuals.

OP posts:
UpstartCrow · 14/02/2018 21:22

MagicSweets Please explain what you mean by 'against trans people' and 'accept trans people'.

I have transgender friends. I do not believe they are actually women. That does not mean I wish them harm.

There is no way to let men self ID as women and keep predatory men out of womens spaces.
Some women cannot share women only spaces and services with biological men.
I support the third gender neutral space option.

What about that is offensive to you?

Myunicornfliessideways · 14/02/2018 21:28

Funnily enough I've never been abused by a woman. Plenty or men and this new wave of 'transgender' people have though. It's almost hysterical hearing a young man, who has just popped a dress and some lippy on, tell me that I just don't understand what he has gone through (i.e. nothing, no surgery, no mental illness, nada) and how I need to 'move over and die'.

And peaked again. Flowers TruScum. Hysterical indeed, but the irony and how deeply insensitive and insulting he was being won't have penetrated his narcissism one bit.

MagicSweets · 14/02/2018 21:39

Sorry for the delay. Not trying to be annoying.

I agree that there is absolutely an issue with men putting on a dress and makeup and saying they are a women. However, I have recently come across a lovely man, who actually does just that and asked a shop if he was allowed to use the women's toilet (it's a single toilet) and they said yes and he was genuinely pleased. I didn't really see any harm in that? But I definitely feel like people on here would.

I actually used to think transgender (in teens/kids) was more about stereotypes and how society is - boys can't wear dresses, etc. or it was just that they were unhappy during puberty.

Then I figured to myself. If I was extremely overweight and lost it and had loose skin (and wanted to wear a bikini) there would be no reason I couldn't (just like a man could wear a dress) but I'd feel extremely uncomfortable. Removing that skin, as an example, would make it easier to do what I wanted to do. I'm not trying to say it's similar to someone who is transgender, but I'm just trying to understand how it makes sense in my head, even if they do say "I have always been into dresses and makeup".

I feel like Mumsnet thinks all transgender (I've actually seen people say this) - transgender females are men wanting to hurt real women and transgender males are women who realise that men are seen as superior in the world and want that.

I don't know. I do agree with the safe spaces issues, etc. but if someone wanted to be a cat, so had surgery to be as similar as possible and had it changed on their passport, etc. I could give a shit, so it seems odd to me why people do or assume men are doing it to hurt women.

OP posts:
UpstartCrow · 14/02/2018 21:43

MagicSweets
What is so terrible about having a third gender inclusive space for trans people and anyone who wants to join them, and preserving women's rights and spaces?

Do you tell BAME people they have to include white people in their activism?

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 14/02/2018 21:45

But I definitely feel like people on here would.

Well quite. He's not a woman. He's a man in a dress.

Xenophile · 14/02/2018 21:45

I feel like Mumsnet thinks all transgender (I've actually seen people say this) - transgender females are men wanting to hurt real women

I would hope no one says that, because no one I know thinks that. Do please feel free to report posts like this because they aren't true. What does and will happen is that men will say they are trans in order to harm women and trans women, and this is worrisome both for women and for trans women, wouldn't you agree?

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 14/02/2018 21:47

I feel like Mumsnet thinks all transgender (I've actually seen people say this) - transgender females are men wanting to hurt real women

No you havent seen this

I am absolutely happy to say that one or two posters may have said this, but i have personally never seen anyone that says all

At all

Ever

This is really not fair

BrandNewHouse · 14/02/2018 21:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 14/02/2018 21:50

What we are saying is that there is a proportion of men who do want to hurt women and self-id makes this easier for them. It actually doesn't matter whether they are 'really' trans or not as under self id anyone who says they are trans is trans.

Lots of trans people are bothered by this prospect for the same reasons that women are.

AngryAttackKittens · 14/02/2018 21:50

Depends what "completely accepting" means. If it means agreeing to anything any given trans person says, definitely not. If it means believing that some penises are female, then no, because you've just thrown class analysis out the window and no longer have a clear way to define what "woman" or "girl" means.

If otoh it just means that you, personally, want to be warm and friendly to the trans people who you encounter and are willing to call them by whatever name they give you etc then sure, why not?

Don't treat it like a religious belief that you're determined to impose on others, basically. Let other women draw their own boundaries and don't try to bully them into adopting the ones that make your trans friends happy.

MagicSweets · 14/02/2018 21:52

@BrandNewHouse why would that not be okay?

OP posts:
isawahatonce · 14/02/2018 21:53

you can't be a feminist and NOT be accepting of transgender people - to be a feminist is to believe in equal rights for all women, regardless of the bodies they were born into :)

CisMyArse · 14/02/2018 21:55

I accept Transsexuals and transgender folk, it's the fecking activists that are screeching about being women that get my pip. They call folk like Miranda Yardley Truscum, dontcha know. They are closing down reasonable discussion on both sides and twats like our UK politicians and media bods are actually giving them air time.

MagicSweets · 14/02/2018 21:55

Just curious though. If you have a transgender women (who people believe is female) as they have had hormone treatment, etc. aren't they just as vulnerable to issues that women face in today's society?

OP posts:
Valentinesfart · 14/02/2018 21:57

I think the majority of feminists support trans activism.

You don't find that here because the majority of feminists have given birth and aren't experienced sexism as children, teenagers, adults, mothers.

Not going to buy the crap spouted by middle aged men or teen boys in lipstick.

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 14/02/2018 21:57

Isa....feminists believe in equal rights for women but Trans Identifying MALES are not and never will be women. (The clue is in the term males, as you seem to be hard of thinking).

BrandNewHouse · 14/02/2018 21:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Puresummer · 14/02/2018 21:58

Exactly isawahotonce. Someone earlier said "the majority of feminists are anti-trans agenda" here on the thread, and it's just not true.

The majority of decent feminists support transgender people. However, this forum is dominated by TERFs of significant prejudiced who pretend they speak for all women and all feminists. It's delusional and misrepresentation.

It seems to be the one place on the internet that transphobic radfems have colonised (a few years ago mumsnet was nowhere near this prejudiced).

The majority of feminists support all of our sisters. Those that don't are a very specific breed of "feminist".

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 14/02/2018 22:00

aren't they just as vulnerable to issues that women face in today's society?

What, like period poverty, discrimination related to pregnancy, loss of earnings relating to taking on the bulk of childcare, burden of taking on the bulk of elderly care, female socialisation, underfunding of female health conditions and so forth?

No. Trans identified men have their own struggle, but it's different to women's struggle in most ways.

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 14/02/2018 22:02

I find it more concerning that there are feminists out there who believe there is such thing as a female brain and that you can have a female brain in a male body. But to each their own.

MagicSweets · 14/02/2018 22:04

@TallulahWaitingInTheRain - why not for these? "loss of earnings relating to taking on the bulk of childcare, burden of taking on the bulk of elderly care"???

Does that mean a transgender male (who has had hormone treatment) is just as vulnerable as women who are not transgender?

OP posts:
UpstartCrow · 14/02/2018 22:06

"Transgender identity politics are about men weaponizing the suffering of transsexual people in order to destroy women's boundaries and undermine basic feminist analysis"

@FightLWSexism thenewbacklash.blogspot.com/

ReluctantCamper · 14/02/2018 22:10

f you have a transgender women (who people believe is female) as they have had hormone treatment, etc. aren't they just as vulnerable to issues that women face in today's society?

Nope. They will have been socialised as men, so will not face the special difficulties reserved for those of us socialised to be kind, be nice, don't make too much noise, don't take up too much space.

Myunicornfliessideways · 14/02/2018 22:11

Your lovely friend, who doesn't present as a woman, asked and was made happy by using the women's loos.

Ok. That's nice for him, and I can see why that seems a kind thing to do to make him happy.

Now imagine that it wasn't a single cubicle loo he asked to use, and there were women in there who were deeply uncomfortable to pee, have a poo, change a tampon, wash blood stained hands, have a miscarriage, with a man presenting as a man in the room. It isn't just about your lovely friend and his feelings, those women have feelings too. It isn't the job of women to put themselves second to make a man feel happy.

There are undeniably a number of sex offending men who have raped women and committed serious sexual offenses and are choosing to identify as women suddenly in adulthood with no history of gender dysphoria, often with obvious gains which they have openly stated, such as access to victims. The prison service shares this information, it's in the public domain to read. So no, not every trans identified male is someone safe and to be trusted in the way that women are used to trusting transsexual people who have been using women's toilets for decades.

Not all trans identified men are lovely. Take a look at Terfisaslur.com and think about whether you want to be shut in a room with one of the 'die in a fire cis scum' ones. Some of what the TRA people say is truly shocking in its violence and anger against women.

If society accepts that any man who looks and acts exactly as a man but says he's a woman can stroll into any bathroom and changing place, then it's inevitable that sex offenders who are not trans at all, will gladly take this open door into women's spaces. In the months since Target, the American store, made their changing rooms self ID the number of voyeuristic and sex based crimes against women has doubled to tripled.

Sex based protections for women cannot be casually undone without massive negative consequences for women, and as you can see on this thread, for Trans people themselves.

ReluctantCamper · 14/02/2018 22:12

I ask this a lot, but lets give it another go. @Puresummer if Danielle Muscato is my sister, can you please provide a definition of 'woman' that includes both me and that individual?

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